Hunter ed classes

[scrappy]

On one hand the good news is that my youngest has now passed her mandated hunter ed class. Having been through this now with all three and watched the process I have a few comments.
First, they mean well. Really they do. And many of the kids would have no access at all to firearms education, esspecialy regarding gun safety, if these classes werent available. In the greater scheme of things these classes are a benefit.
However there is room for criticism here. First is the state mandate of 20hrs of class room instruction. There is only so much you can talk about for 20 hrs without repeating yourself, a LOT. Children tend to have short attention spans, and with the slow pace of the conversation, and repeating the same points many times over, at some point you can watch them begin to tune out. Many of the instructors also seem to dearly love to hear themselves speak. Some were quite good, to the point of being interesting, but they seemed to be both the minority and the least called upon to speak. Others would point out the same things time and again and do it in a manner and tone that was obviously intended to remind the listener that "I am the instructor!! I am knowlageable, because I am an instructor. Besides, look at all of the patches I have on my orange vest", when the proper order for any teacher on any subject should be "I am the instructor, because I am knowlageable".

Second issue is with a good many of the details of the instruction. I watched kids get criticized for failing to put a break action shotgun on the half cock safety position over and over. Turned out the firearm in question uses a transferbar safety system and there is no half cock option on the gun. Do these people pay attention to the tools used to educate the kids? Perhaps they do, but all of their instruction materials seemed to dictate that this is how it is done, and therefor you must teach it this way, completely ignoring the fact that the gun does not possess this feature.

Another instructional detail was in the teaching of the potential range of the 22LR cartridge. As every kid knows, when you open the box it says "caution, range 1-1/2 miles". Ok, I can live with this even though actual testing has shown that this is actualy much more like 3/4 of a mile, or half the stated distance. I can live with it. But I watched an instructor tell the kids that it can STILL reach 1-1/2 miles after it ricochets off of something. Now THAT would be an interesting study in physics. If the projectile cannot reach that distance in a stable and aerodynamicly clean condition, and posessing all of its original momentum, is most assuredly will fail to come even close after striking something, becoming destabilized, loosing its aerodynamic cleanliness as well as loosing a significant portion of its velocity and momentum.
I then listened to the instructor tell these young skulls full of mush that the reason a 22LR is so dangerous is first its velocity, which he stated was , and I quote, " 3-4 or perhaps 600fps". Then he told the kiddies that when the 22rd enters the body it seeks the path of least resistance and instead of exiting will bounce around taking all manner of different directions and acting like a blender inside. Again, I wish I were smart enough to understand the physics involved with that.

At table breaks I watched all of the tables, wandering from one to another. I saw some instructors pay good attention to the kids and offer a lot of help, I saw some who were continualy critical of the kids and I saw 2 who seemed to completely ignore them, even when one boy swept the muzzle of a shotgun verticaly right through another boy while the instructors were laughing about something one of them had said. I pointed out the error to the young man. At one table I pointed something out to a young girl while the instructor stood there, at another table I made a similar point and was quickly told by an instructor that I need leave the teaching to them.

These classes are a benefit, and they do indeed serve a valuable purpose. But the instructors need to take a few steps back and evaluate their methods and information, as I am sure they would have even better results were they to do so. Talk to the kids, not at them. Learn some new information as the tools seem to have surpassed the literature. Be engaging. If you have to demand their attention 10 times a night you are doing something wrong.

[USAFRET]

You should volunteer!

[dmoua]

When I took this class 15 years ago. It wasn't as bad, the classroom only had 13 students.

Few years after I tagged along with my younger brothers to their class at sharp shooters and I swear it was kind of pathetic.
I understand they only mean good but they should have to listen to each other teach the course first.
Boring to the point where half the class just seemed dazed from boredom lol

[boarderwayne]

I actually just took mine the other day, well I did it a little different. Now instead of the traditional class you can take it online and then you have a one day 4hr class where they do a quick review of what you did online, take a short test and then they go over and have you demonstrate proper handling. The online part is great for adults that have never taken the course and don't have time to block out a week of 6hr classes or whatever the traditional class is, It may be good for youngsters too If dad wants to teach the kids himself, they can walk through the online portion together. As for the instructors at the one class day, from what I seen they were all doing a great job.

[scrappy]

I actually just took mine the other day, well I did it a little different. Now instead of the traditional class you can take it online and then you have a one day 4hr class where they do a quick review of what you did online, take a short test and then they go over and have you demonstrate proper handling. The online part is great for adults that have never taken the course and don't have time to block out a week of 6hr classes or whatever the traditional class is, It may be good for youngsters too If dad wants to teach the kids himself, they can walk through the online portion together. As for the instructors at the one class day, from what I seen they were all doing a great job.

At range day the instructors seemed to do fairly well, with one glaring exception that I saw. A teenage girl with no shooting experience at all was up for her turn shooting the 22 rifles. She could not figure out if she should shoot left or right handed. With the instructors input she decided on left. Fine, except for the point that she assumed a completely awful shooting stance, trying to stand perfectly square to the target, hold the rifle to her shoulder and still look at the sights. Inexperience, plus horrible shooting position, multiplied by an instructor that then offered not the slightest hint of help that I could see from 10 feet away all added up to this poor girl not placing a single hole in the paper from about 20 feet. 5 shots, zero hits. The instructor assumed that since she had not lost muzzle control that he had done his job and sent for the next kid.
The online class would indeed have been a far better solution.
As to volunteering, not a chance as long as the entire subject matter is determined by some state employed idiot and all the "senior instructors" are there to say "This is the way we have always done it, this is the way we will still do it".

[jeffw4381]

Well...I am an instructor for the state and an avid hunter and I am sorry to say your are absolutely wrong in just about all of your evaluation of the class. Right from the mandatory time required to your ballistics info. Maybe you should take the class and relearn the info because in your rant on here you have a few things to learn.

[scrappy]

Well...I am an instructor for the state and an avid hunter and I am sorry to say your are absolutely wrong in just about all of your evaluation of the class. Right from the mandatory time required to your ballistics info. Maybe you should take the class and relearn the info because in your rant on here you have a few things to learn.

I would like to see your information regarding the ballistics info, as mine was from a study done by Federal ammo some years back. In this test standard High Velocity Federal 37gr HP 22LR ammo, fired at an elevation angle of 37 degrees rarely exceeded 1400 yds. This is right about 3/4 of a mile. As to the instructor speaking about the velocity of a 22LR bullet (3-4, even 600fps) please support his view for me. All published data says roughly 1250fps in a rifle and they tend to run around 1000-1100fps in most handguns. And as to my evaluation of the class being wrong, please elaborate. I sat there, observed everything, listened to every instructor, observed the students, viewed all of the videos, etc. Do not presume to tell me what I saw when I was the one seeing it. This was my third child to sit through this with as well. Two of them in this same class though about 10 years apart. Many of the instructors were the same guys and they sounded exactly the same each time with the exception of one. 10 years ago he was fairly fresh in the program and it showed as he was more engaging and interactive. Last year he was very aloof and very direct with the kids and very closed off to any suggestions or input. He had become part of the system.
Your reaction to my comments is exactly part of what is wrong with this system. The idea that "you as the instructors know best because you are the instructors, and well, that makes it obvious, right?" is the problem. Can you explain to me how a child can be criticized for failing to put a shotgun into the half cocked position when the gun does not possess this feature? The answer was that the instructional materials and policy say that this is how it is done, therefor that is how it will be done. Do you understand the problem there? No thinking allowed, just read the lines off the script. This is the problem with any rigid system. The tools change but the policy of teaching it stays the same for years.
Again, I watched instructors laughing with each other at one table while kids were handling the weapons. No input, no advice, no observation. Neither of them reacted when the one kid swept the muzzle of the shotgun through the other kid, and it all happened 5 feet in front of them. At other tables much of the instruction in how to handle each action type was very minimal. At one point I told the instructor that one student could use a hand as she was having a hard time with a pump action shotgun. His reply was, and I quote, "This is day 3, she should know plenty by now". What? Any person with this mentality should be removed from the program. This is not a production line event where you manufacture safe gun handlers. You are dealing with children, of varying ages and abilities, as well as experience levels. You as the teacher need to get off your ass and make the effort every time, even if you have to help that same student 15 times in a row, that is what separates a TEACHER from a TELLER.

Oh, as to my statement on the time required, that came directly from the mouth of the head intructor saying it was a state requirement.

[svytlana]

+1

[Waterdog]

I actually just took mine the other day, well I did it a little different. Now instead of the traditional class you can take it online and then you have a one day 4hr class where they do a quick review of what you did online, take a short test and then they go over and have you demonstrate proper handling. The online part is great for adults that have never taken the course and don't have time to block out a week of 6hr classes or whatever the traditional class is, It may be good for youngsters too If dad wants to teach the kids himself, they can walk through the online portion together. As for the instructors at the one class day, from what I seen they were all doing a great job.

My 10 year old took this same rout.
The online class worked out very well for us and was easy to
stop and start as time allowed. I also agree that the instructors
were enjoyable to listen to, kept everyone interested and did a
great job in my book.

[Call Turner]

I actually just took mine the other day, well I did it a little different. Now instead of the traditional class you can take it online and then you have a one day 4hr class where they do a quick review of what you did online, take a short test and then they go over and have you demonstrate proper handling. The online part is great for adults that have never taken the course and don't have time to block out a week of 6hr classes or whatever the traditional class is, It may be good for youngsters too If dad wants to teach the kids himself, they can walk through the online portion together. As for the instructors at the one class day, from what I seen they were all doing a great job.

My 10 year old took this same rout.
The online class worked out very well for us and was easy to
stop and start as time allowed. I also agree that the instructors
were enjoyable to listen to, kept everyone interested and did a
great job in my book.

Where is the address for this please? And do they refer you to the 4 hr class? I know of a kid in need of this class. Thanks.

[Waterdog]

http://www.hunter-ed.com/
This is the link we used and the final test is
NE of Pines at they're newest headquarters.
I don't have that address but it should be
easy to find.

[scrappy]

Ouside of Jack Dolans class at the Lone Pine gun range I would not send anyone to a regular hunter safety class if the online class was a viable option for them. Are these classes inportant? Yes. Do they help? Are they better than nothing? Yes. Do at least some of them need a good overhaul of the teaching materials, not to mention some of the instruction staff, absolutely.

[hatchdog]

Ouside of Jack Dolans class at the Lone Pine gun range I would not send anyone to a regular hunter safety class if the online class was a viable option for them. Are these classes inportant? Yes. Do they help? Are they better than nothing? Yes. Do at least some of them need a good overhaul of the teaching materials, not to mention some of the instruction staff, absolutely.

scrappy, correct me if I am wrong but is Jack Dolan and the Lone Pine range located west of Fairchild south of Hwy 2? If so, this is where I took my son for hunter ed. back in the mid 90's. The course and instructors were absolutely fabulous. The sessions ran nightly from about 5:00 - 9:00 finishing each night with discussion around a campfire. I believe we returned on Saturday for the final testing. The course was shotgun oriented but the instructors covered rifle, handgun, muzzle loader, ammo and handloading. The kids had to supply their own shotgun and 100 shells but they shot centerfire and rimfire rifles, handguns and muzzle loaders in addition to the shotguns. They had real life experiences crossing fences and other obstacles with partners and entered and exited a jeep with their shotguns. On Saturday a local dog trainer (can't remember his name, getting too damn old) brought out pigeons and released them for the kids to shoot live birds. He also brought out his dogs and they did retrieves for the kids. I understand this was 20 years ago and things have changed but the experience has left a very positive memory for both myself and my son.

[mzvarner]

I was not brought up in a family that was very gun friendly. They did not and still do not hate guns, they just did not see the need to own them (isnt that what the police are for?) and they did not see the need to hunt (since all meat comes from the grocery store tree). Since I moved out I have become very interested in being self sufficient so I decided to start trying to hunt. I took the online version which I was able to complete in a weekend. I then tried to find the "in-person" part and could not find an open class FOR ONE CALENDAR YEAR! My on line training expired at this point and I had to do it over. But I found a class first then signed up for the class. I had to drive hours to somewhere near omak. Once at the class, the "instructor" told us this should not take long while we were waiting for the simulation guns to get here... i think 2 hours passed then he decided to start reading the course material and we ended up covering the entire online curriculum....again. The guns finally showed up, then he walked us thru each one and we did our final check off. All in all it took me about 18 months, i ended up taking the class essentially 3 times and the 4 hour hands on course became 8...

[Call Turner]

I was not brought up in a family that was very gun friendly. They did not and still do not hate guns, they just did not see the need to own them (isnt that what the police are for?) and they did not see the need to hunt (since all meat comes from the grocery store tree). Since I moved out I have become very interested in being self sufficient so I decided to start trying to hunt. I took the online version which I was able to complete in a weekend. I then tried to find the "in-person" part and could not find an open class FOR ONE CALENDAR YEAR! My on line training expired at this point and I had to do it over. But I found a class first then signed up for the class. I had to drive hours to somewhere near omak. Once at the class, the "instructor" told us this should not take long while we were waiting for the simulation guns to get here... i think 2 hours passed then he decided to start reading the course material and we ended up covering the entire online curriculum....again. The guns finally showed up, then he walked us thru each one and we did our final check off. All in all it took me about 18 months, i ended up taking the class essentially 3 times and the 4 hour hands on course became 8...

Wow! That kinda sucks! Hopefully Waterdogs course can point out a final class , or maybe the WDFW can.

[scrappy]

Ouside of Jack Dolans class at the Lone Pine gun range I would not send anyone to a regular hunter safety class if the online class was a viable option for them. Are these classes inportant? Yes. Do they help? Are they better than nothing? Yes. Do at least some of them need a good overhaul of the teaching materials, not to mention some of the instruction staff, absolutely.

scrappy, correct me if I am wrong but is Jack Dolan and the Lone Pine range located west of Fairchild south of Hwy 2? If so, this is where I took my son for hunter ed. back in the mid 90's. The course and instructors were absolutely fabulous. The sessions ran nightly from about 5:00 - 9:00 finishing each night with discussion around a campfire. I believe we returned on Saturday for the final testing. The course was shotgun oriented but the instructors covered rifle, handgun, muzzle loader, ammo and handloading. The kids had to supply their own shotgun and 100 shells but they shot centerfire and rimfire rifles, handguns and muzzle loaders in addition to the shotguns. They had real life experiences crossing fences and other obstacles with partners and entered and exited a jeep with their shotguns. On Saturday a local dog trainer (can't remember his name, getting too damn old) brought out pigeons and released them for the kids to shoot live birds. He also brought out his dogs and they did retrieves for the kids. I understand this was 20 years ago and things have changed but the experience has left a very positive memory for both myself and my son.

Yep, that would be him. I don't believe the class has changed at all. I know he still has the dog trainer come out, does the birds, etc. I think one year I heard someone popped for phesants to be released in an area for the kids to hunt. I shoot there from time to time and I like the little range he has there. Last time I was there a few months ago O'le Jack was starting to look a little older..... Anyway, its easily the best class around that I am aware of. I couldn't get any of my kids in his just because of the drive involved.

If someone does want to get into this class get ahold of him right after the start of the year. His class fills up VERY quickly. I can PM the contact number if you cant find it.

[Waterdog]

I was not brought up in a family that was very gun friendly. They did not and still do not hate guns, they just did not see the need to own them (isnt that what the police are for?) and they did not see the need to hunt (since all meat comes from the grocery store tree). Since I moved out I have become very interested in being self sufficient so I decided to start trying to hunt. I took the online version which I was able to complete in a weekend. I then tried to find the "in-person" part and could not find an open class FOR ONE CALENDAR YEAR! My on line training expired at this point and I had to do it over. But I found a class first then signed up for the class. I had to drive hours to somewhere near omak. Once at the class, the "instructor" told us this should not take long while we were waiting for the simulation guns to get here... i think 2 hours passed then he decided to start reading the course material and we ended up covering the entire online curriculum....again. The guns finally showed up, then he walked us thru each one and we did our final check off. All in all it took me about 18 months, i ended up taking the class essentially 3 times and the 4 hour hands on course became 8...

Wow! That kinda sucks! Hopefully Waterdogs course can point out a final class , or maybe the WDFW can.

I do remember my lovely wife who works allot later than i do staying up
until close to midnight to get our son signed up.....
Somewhere you can find the next class date and get set up online.
I will post more info asap on that part. They do fill up VERY fast so
this could very well be the best option to get into the next available class....

[mzvarner]

I was not brought up in a family that was very gun friendly. They did not and still do not hate guns, they just did not see the need to own them (isnt that what the police are for?) and they did not see the need to hunt (since all meat comes from the grocery store tree). Since I moved out I have become very interested in being self sufficient so I decided to start trying to hunt. I took the online version which I was able to complete in a weekend. I then tried to find the "in-person" part and could not find an open class FOR ONE CALENDAR YEAR! My on line training expired at this point and I had to do it over. But I found a class first then signed up for the class. I had to drive hours to somewhere near omak. Once at the class, the "instructor" told us this should not take long while we were waiting for the simulation guns to get here... i think 2 hours passed then he decided to start reading the course material and we ended up covering the entire online curriculum....again. The guns finally showed up, then he walked us thru each one and we did our final check off. All in all it took me about 18 months, i ended up taking the class essentially 3 times and the 4 hour hands on course became 8...

Wow! That kinda sucks! Hopefully Waterdogs course can point out a final class , or maybe the WDFW can.

Well on the bright side, I saw a sign in the valley white elephant that said they have weekly hunter ed courses in the building out back. Could always give them a call.

[scrappy]

They do indeed. My middle one attended there. It was ok, not as bad as the other class the other two went through, but it still left a lot of room for improvement in my opinion. The ones held at the Outpost (behind WE) also fill quickly so don't delay too much after Jan/1.

[DCB]

Jack Dolan's class is still going on, but you need to sign up first thing in January to get a slot. And Scrappy, I love the drill press.