Reloaded Sizing Question

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Merlyn
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Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Merlyn » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:44 pm

I have only been reloading for a few years so I'm hoping that someone here has come across this problem and has a solution.
First, this is .45 ACP ammo. Single Stage RCBS press. Carbide dies that I have used for some time now.
I recently reloaded 100 rounds for an IDPA match. None of the rounds would drop all the way in to my "Plunk Tester". They would go all the way to the base flange and stop there. I have a borrowed Lee sizing die that runs the full length of the casing. I used that on about 20 rounds. Still the same issue. I ran the same 20 rounds through a Lee "Bulge Buster" which runs the round all the way through. I did this several times to the 20 rounds with the same results. They go all the way in to the "Plunk Tester" with the exception of the base flange. I checked some previously reloaded ammo with perfect results. They went the full length into the "Plunk Tester" with no hesitation. I pulled my 1911 out and tried to cycle the ammo through. No luck. My Sig 1911 isn't picky about ammo but it does have to be the correct size. I disassembled the 1911 and just used the barrel as a Plunk Tester. The ammo would not seat properly in the barrel.
Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm at a loss as to how or why the flange has expanded. And I have no idea as to why the Bulge Buster can't fix this problem since the round goes all the way through.

Glenn

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Call Turner » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:02 pm

Have you trimmed your cases , checked your coal and you oal?
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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by scrappy » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:32 pm

I assume by "flange" you mean the rim? A quick check of the book shows the 45 ACP has a nominal case diameter just above the extractor groove of .476", and a nominal rim diameter of .480". A check of a sized case I had handy showed a case/rim diameters of .474"/.476" respectively.
You didn't give a lot of details regarding how exactly these cases stopped. I do think you could have a case length issue. Does empty brass chamber at all? Was this brass fired in this same gun? Is your sizing die screwed down until it touches the shell holder?
It seems to me that you are having this problem after the ammo is loaded. I suspect your bullets might be causing a slight bulge that is stopping the round from fully chanbering. I have seen this before. Try the Lee taper crimp die on a loaded round that would not fit and see if it corrects the issue.
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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by ron » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:35 pm

Call Turner wrote:Have you trimmed your cases , checked your coal and you oal?

that could be your problem. Pull a couple of these "problem" rounds and get out your micrometer

According to my Lyman #46, the spec length is .898"; the 'trim to' length is .895". I've also seen minimum trim length dimensions given as .888. If you don't have a case trimmer, I've ground case mouths against a sharpening stone and also wet-dry sandpaper on a sheet of thick glass or on the sharpening stone, grinding away a little at a time and then measuring a little at a time, which is time-consuming but the only time I've had to do much case trimming is when I had a Ruger Blackhawk chambered in 30 carbine. After 3 or four reloads the cases would not go all the way into the cylinder because of case stretching.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Flange", the British call the case rim the flange. Do you mean a lille bump near where the base if the cartridge is where the sizing die is not able to size it as small as the case? (see illustration)

You might want to pull the 100 rounds that you loaded and put those aside and start with some new brass. And also measure the new brass before and after it's resized, and before and after it's been fired and then again after it's resized again and then reloaded. Try this with only 5 or six rounds of the new batch of brass until you are sure that the problem is solved before loading up another 100 rounds. Another potential problem is bullet diameter. Does the bullet bulge the resized case any when it's seated?

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by BC38 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:37 pm

Call Turner wrote:Have you trimmed your cases , checked your coal and you oal?
My first thought too - especially the trimming.
How may times have these cases been reused?
Rimless auto cartridges headspace on the case mouth - it contacts a slight step-down in the barrel right where the throat of the rifling starts.
Every time you fire a round the brass "swells" or stretches a little - that's why they have to be resized.
Each cycle of stretching and resizing works the malleable brass and enlongates it just the tiniest bit - on the order of tens of thousandths of an inch.
After a few firings the case gets long enough that the case mouth resting against the step down won't allow the brass to insert far enough into the chamber for the action to close all the way. Or for the round to drop all the way into the "plunk tester".
Always looking for a deal on more ammo and reloading components.
I've tried to see things from the liberal point of view - but I'm just not flexible enough to get my head up my ...

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Merlyn » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:38 am

scrappy wrote:I assume by "flange" you mean the rim? A quick check of the book shows the 45 ACP has a nominal case diameter just above the extractor groove of .476", and a nominal rim diameter of .480". A check of a sized case I had handy showed a case/rim diameters of .474"/.476" respectively.
You didn't give a lot of details regarding how exactly these cases stopped. I do think you could have a case length issue. Does empty brass chamber at all? Was this brass fired in this same gun? Is your sizing die screwed down until it touches the shell holder?
It seems to me that you are having this problem after the ammo is loaded. I suspect your bullets might be causing a slight bulge that is stopping the round from fully chanbering. I have seen this before. Try the Lee taper crimp die on a loaded round that would not fit and see if it corrects the issue.
My mistake. Yes it is the rim. Not a flange. OAL is well within tolerances. The only part of the shell that doesn't fit into the Plunk Tester or the barrel of the firearm is the rim. Even after I use the Bulge Buster which runs the entire casing completely through.
I have taken 200 empty shell casings that have been recently re-sized and de-primed and dropped them into the plunk tester and not one of them failed. The rim on these rounds fit perfectly into both the plunk tester and the barrel of the 1911 I use.

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Merlyn » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:49 am

ron wrote:
Call Turner wrote:Have you trimmed your cases , checked your coal and you oal?

that could be your problem. Pull a couple of these "problem" rounds and get out your micrometer

According to my Lyman #46, the spec length is .898"; the 'trim to' length is .895". I've also seen minimum trim length dimensions given as .888. If you don't have a case trimmer, I've ground case mouths against a sharpening stone and also wet-dry sandpaper on a sheet of thick glass or on the sharpening stone, grinding away a little at a time and then measuring a little at a time, which is time-consuming but the only time I've had to do much case trimming is when I had a Ruger Blackhawk chambered in 30 carbine. After 3 or four reloads the cases would not go all the way into the cylinder because of case stretching.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Flange", the British call the case rim the flange. Do you mean a lille bump near where the base if the cartridge is where the sizing die is not able to size it as small as the case? (see illustration)

You might want to pull the 100 rounds that you loaded and put those aside and start with some new brass. And also measure the new brass before and after it's resized, and before and after it's been fired and then again after it's resized again and then reloaded. Try this with only 5 or six rounds of the new batch of brass until you are sure that the problem is solved before loading up another 100 rounds. Another potential problem is bullet diameter. Does the bullet bulge the resized case any when it's seated?

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Okay, Murphys Law has stepped in to help my frustrations. I pulled out my digital Micrometer and of course the battery is dead. Go figure. The one time I don't have a spare.
Not sure where or when my British side came to be, (my sister does the Genealogy thing and has never gotten us back to Britten just yet) But it is the "Rim" that won't go into the plunk tester. Now as for the bullets, they are something that I have never tried before. They are not coated in copper. They are jacketed however and come in at .452 when my battery did work and I measured.

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by eph411 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:43 pm

Now as for the bullets, they are something that I have never tried before.
Sounds like your new bullet needs to be loaded to a shorter OAL. You didn't say if it's a different profile, but what you're describing sounds like your bullet is either engaging the lands or the cartridge is headspacing on the bullet rather than the case mouth. Try reducing your COAL little by little and I'll bet after some adjustment it passes the plunk test in your barrel just fine.

Eric

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by kevinmajor » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:16 pm

eph411 wrote:
Now as for the bullets, they are something that I have never tried before.
Sounds like your new bullet needs to be loaded to a shorter OAL. You didn't say if it's a different profile, but what you're describing sounds like your bullet is either engaging the lands or the cartridge is headspacing on the bullet rather than the case mouth. Try reducing your COAL little by little and I'll bet after some adjustment it passes the plunk test in your barrel just fine.

Eric


I had the same thing happen with HSM hollow points. I had to use a shorter oal because the profile of the bullet wouldn't allow it to fully chamber.

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by BC38 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:15 pm

Yup, different ogive requires different seating depth if the barrel hasn't had it's chamber throat honed...
Always looking for a deal on more ammo and reloading components.
I've tried to see things from the liberal point of view - but I'm just not flexible enough to get my head up my ...

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Merlyn » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:40 am

eph411 wrote:
Now as for the bullets, they are something that I have never tried before.
Sounds like your new bullet needs to be loaded to a shorter OAL. You didn't say if it's a different profile, but what you're describing sounds like your bullet is either engaging the lands or the cartridge is headspacing on the bullet rather than the case mouth. Try reducing your COAL little by little and I'll bet after some adjustment it passes the plunk test in your barrel just fine.

Eric
It seems I am now in need of a new caliper. I picked up a cheep digital at Harbor Freight a couple of years ago and with a new battery installed, it won't hold zero. It won't even stay on with the new battery and the cover on. Now looking for a better quality Caliper. My measurements from the old one showed that the rim is fine but there is a slight bulge above that. I may have reloaded these casings a few too many times. I have put 100 casings through the tester and the barrel and they fit perfectly. These have been de-primed and resized recently.
Thanks for all of the ideas. After finding a good caliper, I will start over with my reloads and see how it goes.

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by R.J. » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:44 pm

I didn't see it mentioned but maybe a Lee factory crimp die would solve your issue(if it doesn't turn out to be the seating depth). It resizes the entire length of the case.


ETA: Just noticed Scrappy's post...beat me to it ;).
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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Blacklion66 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:44 pm

I would bet that within 5 miles of you are several experienced apc reloaders that for the price of of a cup of coffee and maybe a donut would stop by and look at your set-up

45 apc cases seldom need trimming, something else is going

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by R.J. » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:12 pm

Blacklion66 wrote:I would bet that within 5 miles of you are several experienced apc reloaders that for the price of of a cup of coffee and maybe a donut would stop by and look at your set-up

45 apc cases seldom need trimming, something else is going

That crossed my mind as well. In fact I always thought, for the most part, only rifle casings with their MUCH higher pressures would need trimming.
.45ACP is a low-pressure round.
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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Lanyard » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:44 am

Have you considered that you might be applying too much crimp? I can remember when a loose die in the press caused a case of over-crimp. I could not get the loaded cartridge to chamber. I re-adjusted the die and all was well. I live out in the Valley, contact me we'll talk.

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Merlyn » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:13 pm

Lanyard wrote:Have you considered that you might be applying too much crimp? I can remember when a loose die in the press caused a case of over-crimp. I could not get the loaded cartridge to chamber. I re-adjusted the die and all was well. I live out in the Valley, contact me we'll talk.
Okay, time for a little update. I have acquired a new digital caliper. This one doesn't zero out all the time. The previous one was cheep but the new one seems much nicer all around. Having said that, I have done some simple measurements. Starting with Over All Case Length. Even my Once-Fired brass came out to .744 pretty consistently. According to the book I have, it says .754 is max. Even my flanges are smaller than the book says. I have taken the barrel out of the gun and used it as a plunk tester just to confirm what my little plunk tester dies have been telling me. They are the same. The round after loading, and seating the bullet, will not go fully in to the barrel or the plunk tester. The only die I haven't re-set is the flaring die. If I am flaring the end of the casing too far, this might have an effect on the whole project. Not sure how since I have put all of these through a Lee Factory Crimp die which by the way only loosened the lead bullet when finished. I have not had time to go down and work with this for a while and when I do get the time, I will start from scratch and re-set each die as I go. At which point I should find my problem and solve it. I'll let you all know.

Glenn

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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by Call Turner » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:26 am

And your overall cartridge length is?
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Re: Reloaded Sizing Question

Post by ron » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:17 pm

Call Turner wrote:And your overall cartridge length is?

Yes! I suspect that IS the problem. As I recall, I think that the original poster said that he had been loading 45 ACP without any problems until he tried a different bullet. (Edit: I looked back at his posts and found this: "Now as for the bullets, they are something that I have never tried before.") I suspect the ogive or curvature of the new bullet's nose is different from what he had been successfully been using before and may need to be seated deeper to a shorter OAL (Overall Length) for the round to fully chamber.

Keep in mind, however that anytime you seat a bullet deeper you decrease case capacity and increase pressures and you may have to adjust your powder charge particularly if you are already close to a maximum charge.
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