Reloading 9mm question

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Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:32 am

I am not an expert on reloading but have had good success with what I have done up till now. I'm reloading 9MM and putting it through a new CZ 75B Omega. Every now and then, a round gets stuck part way in to the tube. I loaded with 115gr FMJ, Tight Group powder. I took the load information off the Hadgdon Website and place my loads half way between the light and heavy. 4.5gr. I.m thinking that it isn't enough powder to push the slide all the way back, (really tight spring) and the new round isn't quite ready to go in to the pipe. Any extra thoughts here or might I be on the right track?

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by BC38 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:03 am

Merlyn wrote:I am not an expert on reloading but have had good success with what I have done up till now. I'm reloading 9MM and putting it through a new CZ 75B Omega. Every now and then, a round gets stuck part way in to the tube. I loaded with 115gr FMJ, Tight Group powder. I took the load information off the Hadgdon Website and place my loads half way between the light and heavy. 4.5gr. I.m thinking that it isn't enough powder to push the slide all the way back, (really tight spring) and the new round isn't quite ready to go in to the pipe. Any extra thoughts here or might I be on the right track?
Double check your Cartridge Over All Length (COAL) - especially on any round that hangs up partway into the chamber. If they are too long that can cause feeding issues.
Another thing to check is to make sure that you are getting the correct crimp. If the case mouth flare isn't crimped down tight enough around the bullet that might be the issue.
Also check the length of the cases. They can get enlongated from repeated firing and reloading.
Just a couple of thoughts....
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by ron » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:12 am

Merlyn wrote:I am not an expert on reloading but have had good success with what I have done up till now. I'm reloading 9MM and putting it through a new CZ 75B Omega. Every now and then, a round gets stuck part way in to the tube. I loaded with 115gr FMJ, Tight Group powder. I took the load information off the Hadgdon Website and place my loads half way between the light and heavy. 4.5gr. I.m thinking that it isn't enough powder to push the slide all the way back, (really tight spring) and the new round isn't quite ready to go in to the pipe. Any extra thoughts here or might I be on the right track?

If you don't have a micrometer, get one. even a cheap one from harbor freight will do. Make sure the 115 grain projectile that you're using mikes out at .355 and not 356 or 357. As far as the stiff recoils spring, does the gun work Ok with factory ammo using a similar projectile? whenever working up a reload always have similar factory ammo handy for comparison. A chronograph is useful in this regard, but without one you can still compare the recoil between your reload to the factory ammo to know if your reload is producing enough energy to cycle the gun. Also pay attention to over all length (Using your micrometer) comparing your reloads with factory load using the same type of projectile, meaning round nose FMJ, Truncated cone fmj, or hollowpoint.

The other thing to watch for is the trim length of your cases but this shouldn't be an d issue with new brass or once-fired.

Also before you even start reloading if it's a new gun you need to try it with different factory loads to learn if the gun itself doesn't want to feed different types of ammo. If it were a Glock that probably wouldn't be an issue. :D

As far as load data, the best thing you can do is get a Loadbooks USA softcover book for 8 dollars. It will have load data from almost all powder manufacturer, bullet manufacturer and just about every published reloading manual that's out there but only for one chambering only. that way tou can compare a lot of different load recommendations for the load that you're working with. DE Pawn on francis has these books as does Cabelas but call first otherwise Midway has the books online.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/185458 ... ing-manual
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Astocks2622 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:12 am

If the fired case is ejecting, & the newh round is being stripped from te mag, it seems unlikely that a light powder charge is the culprit. have you tried the "plunk" test? remove the barrel from the problem gun, & drop several of your reloads into the chamber. if they slide all the way in like they should with a "plunk", they should be good to go as far as sizing is concerned. if they drag or hang up part-way into the chamber, you have a diameter problem. Iyyour projectiles are slightly oversized, & you have a pile of them, you can just finish by running them through a Lee factory crimp die. it has a carbide sizing ring that will swage your finished case (& bullet) down to size for reliable chambering. this can be a problem if you are shooting specially sized bullets matched to your groove diameter, but for plinking/SD ammo, they work like a charm. I use them on all my pistol ammo, & most of my revolver ammo. used to use them on my rifle ammo till I realized it was totally unnecessary for a bolt action...
good luck!
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by hatchdog » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:22 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree completely, a Lee FCD will most likely solve your problem. Like Astocks, I use a Lee crimp die for all my pistol loads for semi's and I also use one for .223 used in AR's. A good rule of thumb when loading quantities of ammo is after every five or ten cartridges stop and check powder charge, OAL and do the drop test as noted above. (I load on a Lee turret press with a powder drop thus the charge verification) Should you find a problem you will only have to dis-assemble a few rounds.

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by BC38 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:20 am

hatchdog wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree completely, a Lee FCD will most likely solve your problem. Like Astocks, I use a Lee crimp die for all my pistol loads for semi's and I also use one for .223 used in AR's. A good rule of thumb when loading quantities of ammo is after every five or ten cartridges stop and check powder charge, OAL and do the drop test as noted above. (I load on a Lee turret press with a powder drop thus the charge verification) Should you find a problem you will only have to dis-assemble a few rounds.
Ditto - I use the FCD too, on all my revolver and semi-auto loads.
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by PapaBear » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:18 am

BC38 wrote:
hatchdog wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree completely, a Lee FCD will most likely solve your problem. Like Astocks, I use a Lee crimp die for all my pistol loads for semi's and I also use one for .223 used in AR's. A good rule of thumb when loading quantities of ammo is after every five or ten cartridges stop and check powder charge, OAL and do the drop test as noted above. (I load on a Lee turret press with a powder drop thus the charge verification) Should you find a problem you will only have to dis-assemble a few rounds.
Ditto - I use the FCD too, on all my revolver and semi-auto loads.
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:43 pm

Double check your Cartridge Over All Length (COAL) - especially on any round that hangs up partway into the chamber. If they are too long that can cause feeding issues.
Another thing to check is to make sure that you are getting the correct crimp. If the case mouth flare isn't crimped down tight enough around the bullet that might be the issue.
Also check the length of the cases. They can get enlongated from repeated firing and reloading.
Just a couple of thoughts....
I have two Micrometers and use them both. The COAL is right on the money for these. I will check my shell casing for Overall length as well as the crimp. Good info. Thank you for the help.

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:47 pm

If you don't have a micrometer, get one. even a cheap one from harbor freight will do. Make sure the 115 grain projectile that you're using mikes out at .355 and not 356 or 357. As far as the stiff recoils spring, does the gun work Ok with factory ammo using a similar projectile? whenever working up a reload always have similar factory ammo handy for comparison. A chronograph is useful in this regard, but without one you can still compare the recoil between your reload to the factory ammo to know if your reload is producing enough energy to cycle the gun. Also pay attention to over all length (Using your micrometer) comparing your reloads with factory load using the same type of projectile, meaning round nose FMJ, Truncated cone fmj, or hollowpoint.

The other thing to watch for is the trim length of your cases but this shouldn't be an d issue with new brass or once-fired.

Also before you even start reloading if it's a new gun you need to try it with different factory loads to learn if the gun itself doesn't want to feed different types of ammo. If it were a Glock that probably wouldn't be an issue.
I have measured the bullets and they are right on. No deformities that I can see. Measured weight and diameter as well as length. All good.
I have put at least 100 rounds of three different factory loads through this gun with no problems. It tells me that this thing isn't all that picky and will shoot anything. (at least most everything) I have pretty much narrowed it down to my re-loads through simply process of elimination. But all of the information given is being re-thought and I will look at things a bit more carefully.

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:54 pm


Re: Reloading 9mm question

Postby Astocks2622 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:12 am
If the fired case is ejecting, & the newh round is being stripped from te mag, it seems unlikely that a light powder charge is the culprit. have you tried the "plunk" test? remove the barrel from the problem gun, & drop several of your reloads into the chamber. if they slide all the way in like they should with a "plunk", they should be good to go as far as sizing is concerned. if they drag or hang up part-way into the chamber, you have a diameter problem. Iyyour projectiles are slightly oversized, & you have a pile of them, you can just finish by running them through a Lee factory crimp die. it has a carbide sizing ring that will swage your finished case (& bullet) down to size for reliable chambering. this can be a problem if you are shooting specially sized bullets matched to your groove diameter, but for plinking/SD ammo, they work like a charm. I use them on all my pistol ammo, & most of my revolver ammo. used to use them on my rifle ammo till I realized it was totally unnecessary for a bolt action...
good luck!
I have "Plunk" test dies for all of my reloads and I use them on all rounds. I learned my lesson with .45 ACP when I started picking up brass from other shooters. I had a few rounds with bulges and invested in a bulge buster specifically for the .45 ACP. That worked wonders for what I needed. I also measure each load before dropping it into the shell casing. The powder drop that I have (RCBS) that came with the whole system, can vary a little with each drop. Tight Group is a pretty fine powder so I took that in to consideration when loading.

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:58 pm

I agree completely, a Lee FCD will most likely solve your problem. Like Astocks, I use a Lee crimp die for all my pistol loads for semi's and I also use one for .223 used in AR's. A good rule of thumb when loading quantities of ammo is after every five or ten cartridges stop and check powder charge, OAL and do the drop test as noted above. (I load on a Lee turret press with a powder drop thus the charge verification) Should you find a problem you will only have to dis-assemble a few rounds.
I use RCBS for all of my dies. Carbide all of them. There is an adjustment for the taper crimp and I will be looking to re-adjust that to make sure. I measure and check every charge so I don't think that is the problem. I sure a single stage press (sort of therapy) so I'm not in any hurry. I just want them to be right.
What would the difference be between the RCBS carbide taper crimp dies and the Lee FCD?

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Astocks2622 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:41 pm

Not sure if the RCBS does any sizing after seating the bullet, other than the actual crimp. after seating the bullet, the Lee FCD crimps the case mouth, & then on the way out, sizes the casing (with bullet seated) again. this more or less guarantees that the round will chamber by squeezing it back into spec AFTER bullet seating.
even if your bullets are the right diameter, when you press them into the brass casing, the casing can swell a bit outside of ideal specs, causing it to hang when it's chambered. my guess is that it isn't an OAL issue, but that the finished round is slightly oversize for a tighter 'competition" type chamber. if the slide is stopping more than 1/16" from fully forward (in battery) then it is unlikely that your case trim length or completed round OAL is the culprit.

Also, the plunk test is best checked with the actual barrel that will be firing them. sometimes, the issue is the bullet itself contacting the rifling in the barrel (OAL too long). do the test dies simulate this somehow? if you have the ability to measure inside diameters accurately, measure the ID of your plunk die, then the chamber on your CZ. if the CZ chamber is tighter than the test die, you may have just found your Not-So-Smoking Gun. also measure the outside diameter of a completed round just behind the case mouth & then down below where the rear of the bullet is. if the mouth is a few thousandths larger than farther down the casing, this may also support my guess.
good luck, keep us in the loop!
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by eph411 » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:01 pm

Astocks2622 wrote:Not sure if the RCBS does any sizing after seating the bullet, other than the actual crimp. after seating the bullet, the Lee FCD crimps the case mouth, & then on the way out, sizes the casing (with bullet seated) again. this more or less guarantees that the round will chamber by squeezing it back into spec AFTER bullet seating.
even if your bullets are the right diameter, when you press them into the brass casing, the casing can swell a bit outside of ideal specs, causing it to hang when it's chambered. my guess is that it isn't an OAL issue, but that the finished round is slightly oversize for a tighter 'competition" type chamber. if the slide is stopping more than 1/16" from fully forward (in battery) then it is unlikely that your case trim length or completed round OAL is the culprit.

Also, the plunk test is best checked with the actual barrel that will be firing them. sometimes, the issue is the bullet itself contacting the rifling in the barrel (OAL too long). do the test dies simulate this somehow? if you have the ability to measure inside diameters accurately, measure the ID of your plunk die, then the chamber on your CZ. if the CZ chamber is tighter than the test die, you may have just found your Not-So-Smoking Gun. also measure the outside diameter of a completed round just behind the case mouth & then down below where the rear of the bullet is. if the mouth is a few thousandths larger than farther down the casing, this may also support my guess.
good luck, keep us in the loop!
This is the ticket here, checking the finished cartridges in the actual barrel you'll be shooting. A case gauge is nice and all, but it doesn't tell you anything about throat length which may be shorter on your actual gun. One other thing I'd add, and someone alluded to this as well, is that too much crimp will also cause problems as well - particularly on a taper crimp cartridge where you headspace on the case mouth. Apply too much crimp and you can get cartridges that aren't headspacing correctly which will cause feeding issues, or the other thing that can happen is that too much crimp at the mouth can actually make the case bulge slightly below the mouth from excessive crimp. So the key again is applying crimp gradually and use your barrel as a test gauge until the completed cartridges drop freely in and out of the barrel.

Two other things to consider: 1) Make sure your sizing die is adjusted correctly and you're getting your brass properly sized. It's pretty common for folks to not get the dies turned down far enough so that the case doesn't get sized all the way to the head, and if that happens the rounds aren't going to feed. 2) If you troubleshoot everything else and find at the end of the day that you've just got a really tight chamber, consider using a "U" or Undersized sizing die. "U" dies are undersized by .001", which doesn't sound like much, but makes a huge difference in a really tight chamber. Lee provides them as standard replacements for their sizing dies if you ask, or EGW makes a good "U" die for most major calibers if you need to go that route. I've gone to "U" dies in several pistol calibers such as .45 where my 1911's have such tight match chambers that I needed that extra .001" to get 100% feeding reliability. So just another option to consider if you rule everything else out and find you've just got a really tight chambered gun.

Eric

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:45 pm


Re: Reloading 9mm question

Postby Astocks2622 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:41 pm
Not sure if the RCBS does any sizing after seating the bullet, other than the actual crimp. after seating the bullet, the Lee FCD crimps the case mouth, & then on the way out, sizes the casing (with bullet seated) again. this more or less guarantees that the round will chamber by squeezing it back into spec AFTER bullet seating.
even if your bullets are the right diameter, when you press them into the brass casing, the casing can swell a bit outside of ideal specs, causing it to hang when it's chambered. my guess is that it isn't an OAL issue, but that the finished round is slightly oversize for a tighter 'competition" type chamber. if the slide is stopping more than 1/16" from fully forward (in battery) then it is unlikely that your case trim length or completed round OAL is the culprit.

Also, the plunk test is best checked with the actual barrel that will be firing them. sometimes, the issue is the bullet itself contacting the rifling in the barrel (OAL too long). do the test dies simulate this somehow? if you have the ability to measure inside diameters accurately, measure the ID of your plunk die, then the chamber on your CZ. if the CZ chamber is tighter than the test die, you may have just found your Not-So-Smoking Gun. also measure the outside diameter of a completed round just behind the case mouth & then down below where the rear of the bullet is. if the mouth is a few thousandths larger than farther down the casing, this may also support my guess.
good luck, keep us in the loop!
Okay. So many of you have recommended the Lee FCD that I have ordered 2 of them. One for the 9mm Lugar and one for the .45 ACP that I also reload and shoot. (often) I have also ordered the booklet that was suggested earlier in these posts. One can never have too many helping guides. When these items arrive, I will put them to the test and come back here with the results.
I would like to thank all of you who have taken the time to put your "two-cents" worth in. This has been a big help and an inspiration to me. Thank you all..

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:31 am

Now I am totally frustrated. I have gone through every setting at least 7 times and at the end of it all, the lead in the casing spins very freely. This is after re-setting the seating die, and using as the last step, the Lee Factory Crimp die. I can't adjust the die to where it does the crimp. Yes I have read all the instructions multiple times and though I'm not a college graduate, I know how to follow instructions and I still remember how to read. As a test to see if it worked, I loaded up a number of rounds in a magazine and tried to cycle them through the gun. The test failed. And yes, it bothers me that after making the round and before putting through the Lee Factory Crimp Die, the lead was firmly seated and did not spin. It still didn't cycle through the gun however. I have to put this down for a while. Like I said, I am TOTALLY FRUSTRATED.. I have, in the past, made 9mm for my wife's Kimber and never had these issues. I have run 3 different brands of factory ammo through this gun with NO problems at all. I'm feeling confident that it isn't the firearm but the guy making the ammo. ME.
In a few days I will start over. I need to set this aside and let some things soak in to my little brain and maybe I can come up with something I might not be doing right.

Merlyn

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by eph411 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:50 pm

Merlyn wrote:Now I am totally frustrated. I have gone through every setting at least 7 times and at the end of it all, the lead in the casing spins very freely. This is after re-setting the seating die, and using as the last step, the Lee Factory Crimp die. I can't adjust the die to where it does the crimp. Yes I have read all the instructions multiple times and though I'm not a college graduate, I know how to follow instructions and I still remember how to read. As a test to see if it worked, I loaded up a number of rounds in a magazine and tried to cycle them through the gun. The test failed. And yes, it bothers me that after making the round and before putting through the Lee Factory Crimp Die, the lead was firmly seated and did not spin. It still didn't cycle through the gun however. I have to put this down for a while. Like I said, I am TOTALLY FRUSTRATED.. I have, in the past, made 9mm for my wife's Kimber and never had these issues. I have run 3 different brands of factory ammo through this gun with NO problems at all. I'm feeling confident that it isn't the firearm but the guy making the ammo. ME.
In a few days I will start over. I need to set this aside and let some things soak in to my little brain and maybe I can come up with something I might not be doing right.

Merlyn
Don't give up brother, that's just reloading sometimes. If it would help to have someone meet up with you to get some hands on help I know I'd be happy to help as would several other guys here. I've had to call in for support more than a few times through the years, so don't feel you've got to go it alone if you need some help. Let us know what we can do and we'll get you up and running.

Eric

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by Merlyn » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:08 pm

Okay. Just an update. I have reverse engineered my efforts. I placed a factory round in the press. Pushed the round all the way to the top. Screwed the TC 12 RCBS Seating die all the way down to the round. Just beyond finger tight. Locked the ring in place. Screwed the seating part down to the lead. Set the seating part. I ran 10 rounds of new through this system. Then I loaded the 10 rounds into a magazine and cycled these rounds through the handgun in-house. Everything went just fine. I have not been to the range to see how they fire yet but that is the next step. I didn't use the Lee Factory Crimp die just yet. I want to see if these rounds fire true before going the next step.

Merlyn

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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by BC38 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:02 pm

Sounds like you are on your way. One thing to keep in mind. With the small volume of the case after you've seated bullet in it, small changes in OAL make a BIG difference in pressure. For example on another board I recently saw a graph published by the manufacturer of Ramshot Zip powder that shows a .06" decrease in OAL with a standard profile 115gr bullet caused a pressure increase of over 17% - from 28,000psi to nearly 33,000 psi!
So be careful that you aren't over-seatig the bullet, because if you are already loading anywhere near max charge, a few hundredths of an inch shorter OAL can put the pressure spike into the danger zone.
Last edited by BC38 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by edzz » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:04 pm

BC38 thanks for clarifying. :) feel free to remove my post.
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Re: Reloading 9mm question

Post by BC38 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:31 pm

edzz wrote:
BC38 wrote:Sounds like you are on your way. One thing to keep in mind. With the small volume of the case after you've seated bullet in it, small changes in OAL make a BIG difference in pressure. For example on another board I recently saw a graph published by the manufacturer of Ramshot Zip powder that shows a .06" DECREASE in OAL with a standard profile 115gr bullet caused a pressure increase of over 17% - from 28,000psi to nearly 33,000 psi!
So be careful that you aren't over-seatig the bullet, because if you are already loading anywhere near max charge, a few hundredths of an inch shorter OAL can put the pressure spike into the danger zone.

BC38 I suspect you mention to say a .06 decrease in OAL caused a pressure increase. Unless Ramshot Zip is very different from normal powders.
You are of course correct - I mistyped that. I have corrected the error. See the text highlighted in red in the above copy of the original post.

A perfect (though unintentional) example of why one should never just accept reloading info posted on the internet at face value without first giving it the "common sense" test AND validating it against other reliable sources.
Always looking for a deal on more ammo and reloading components.
I've tried to see things from the liberal point of view - but I'm just not flexible enough to get my head up my ...

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