The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Don't let me discourage you. I'm but one of few vocal jerks here, and I'm sure most won't be as critical as me.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
You may be vocal but you have good manners. I appreciate that.Low Trq wrote:Don't let me discourage you. I'm but one of few vocal jerks here, and I'm sure most won't be as critical as me.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Go to YouTube and check out brass Fetcher that is my go to channel when picking out home defense rounds. He has ballistic gel testing with high speed cameras. Its amazing how brid shot looks. Makes you really appreciate it. Also check out the caliber you carry.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Interesting topic... Kind of makes me reconsider my go to home defense round of federal premium 12 gauge 00 buck. I live in a very small home right now with neighbors close by. I'd hate to blow through a wall or two. But at the same time I want to do a lot of damage if need be. I should grab some #4 buck shot I guess.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
At the risk of stirring up any controversy, I'd like to voice the opinion that Ballistics, both internal and external, is an exact science involving mathematics to determine relationships between velocity, mass, energy, projectile weight, projectile sectional density, and other factors.dirty_ammo wrote:Go to YouTube and check out brass Fetcher that is my go to channel when picking out home defense rounds. He has ballistic gel testing with high speed cameras. Its amazing how brid shot looks. Makes you really appreciate it. Also check out the caliber you carry.
But ballistic GEL testing, on the other hand, is not an exact science, but is only an approximation based on speculation and indirect comparison to real world scenarios. Yet many believe that that the results they see on youtube vids with the magic jello are irrefutable.
I disagree. As an example, the 32 Auto is considered a "mouse gun" and is not very unimpressive when fired into ballistic gel. But on June 3, 1968, world famous avant garde/pop artist Andy Warhol was shot with a 32 auto and a single round damaged his lungs, esophagus, spleen, liver, and stomach. he arrived at the hospital approximately 20 minutes after being shot and upon initial examination attending physicians, after examining Warhol's wounds, muttered "Forget it" and "No chance."
But another man, who had also been shot, (but less seriously injured) was on a nearby operating table, an shouted, "Don't you know who this is? It's Andy Warhol. He's famous. And he's rich. He can afford to pay for any operation. For Christ's sake, do something!" "Spurred on" by the knowledge that this was someone rich and famous, and therefore "Important", the lead heart surgeon was called in, split open the chest, massaged Warhol's heart and spent 5 hours saving the man's life. Warhol had flat-lined and was technically dead by the time the lead physician had got to him.
The path which that 32 caliber 71 grain fmj bullet took inside Warhol's body is something that you'll never see a similar bullet duplicating in ballistic gel. So what I'm saying is the results of the youtube vids are fun to watch and simplifies things that really aren't that simple, but is not the final word on the subject nor is it established religious doctrine that would be heresy to question or doubt.
All that being said, The Brass Fetcher website isn't just jello testing presumed to be self-evident. There's some pretty well written analysis to go along with it which is based on more than just ballistic gel results.
As far as the original post, and this applies to all guns, obviously bigger is better and # 6 shot is better that #8, #4 is better than #6 and so on. The happy medium seems to be #4 buck which is less likely to penetrate the wall of your dwelling and enter the neighbors or a bedroom wall where other family members are, but as far as the damage you want it to do to keep someone from killing you, double aught is about as good as it gets.
My main home defense shotgun is chambered for 3 inch so I can use 15 pellet loads, but for 2 3/4 inch guns, Remington makes a 12 pellet 00 buck magnum load which is nearly identical and seems like it kicks worse than the 3 incher, but it's still useful in my gun because I can get more of those rounds in the extended mag tube. And my house is far enough from neighbors that I don't have to worry about over-penetration.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
My own personal testing done with my Saiga 12 gauge (smooth bore no choke 18.5 inch barrel) indicates that birdshot/target loads spread out and lose velocity extremely quickly. At 10 feet or closer it will do tremendous damage, but any further than that and the spread pattern increases exponentially, while losing velocity as well. If it's all you have, then sure go ahead and use it in an emergency. I've read in magazines a few different times where they did testing and the consensus is that #4 buckshot gives you the best balance for home defense use. For my own house, sure birdshot could work in my bedroom, but what if I had to go outside for any number of possible scenarios?
I think a birdshot wound to the torso from under 10 feet would be devastating because even if it doesn't immediately score a central nervous system hit, you have a massive amount of blood being lost from the gaping hole probably 3" in diameter by 4" or more deep.
Here's a simple test: Buy a pork roast or shoulder (can be found pretty cheaply) and shoot it from 5-10 feet away with your choice of birdshot, maybe put an old pair of jeans over it to simulate clothing.
I think a birdshot wound to the torso from under 10 feet would be devastating because even if it doesn't immediately score a central nervous system hit, you have a massive amount of blood being lost from the gaping hole probably 3" in diameter by 4" or more deep.
Here's a simple test: Buy a pork roast or shoulder (can be found pretty cheaply) and shoot it from 5-10 feet away with your choice of birdshot, maybe put an old pair of jeans over it to simulate clothing.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Video proof:[youtube]http://youtu.be/gq3RVvL9ZjU?t=8m[/youtube]
The shooting starts at about 8:15, I linked it to 8:00 but if it starts at the beginning just skip to around the 8 minute mark if you want to see the action. If a human took a shot like that to the chest I doubt they'd get very far if they didn't die immediately, and that's just one shot so unless you are using a single shot break action shotgun, you would probably have inflicted multiple wounds of that size on the attacker.
My main issue though is that it's pretty much useless for my particular shotgun unless I'm within 10 feet or so. If someone wants to use a hunting shotgun with a long, choked barrel then they could probably increase the effective range out to 30 feet but most home defense shotguns are like mine, 18.5 inch no choke barrel.
The shooting starts at about 8:15, I linked it to 8:00 but if it starts at the beginning just skip to around the 8 minute mark if you want to see the action. If a human took a shot like that to the chest I doubt they'd get very far if they didn't die immediately, and that's just one shot so unless you are using a single shot break action shotgun, you would probably have inflicted multiple wounds of that size on the attacker.
My main issue though is that it's pretty much useless for my particular shotgun unless I'm within 10 feet or so. If someone wants to use a hunting shotgun with a long, choked barrel then they could probably increase the effective range out to 30 feet but most home defense shotguns are like mine, 18.5 inch no choke barrel.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Video Help...
Good find Kaiser.
Good find Kaiser.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Thanks for the video help
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
I don't care what anybody says. Bird shot of any size through a 12 or 20 gauge will be lethal at 10-12 feet which is the distance you'd be shooting in a "home defense" situation. To suggest it would be ineffective is just plain silly, youd open a hole the size of a beer can in someone for crying out loud. If it isn't lethal it will definately stop any intruder. Id rather rely on a shotty than a 9.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
lots of experts few if any would care to be shot at with bird shot five or 100 feet. Bird shot might not penetrate but at 10 feet it will make a nice round hole in drywall. Many years ago the NRA did extensive tests on buckshot used for hunting deer in the south. State of GA 1959 you could only hunt deer or hogs with a shotgun, buckshot or slugs. The top buckshot for small deer was #1 buck, which might explain why the loaded shotguns in my house have only #1 buck.
No-one mentioned it but in my book the best argument against birdshot is after the bad guy recovers he will be in a position to file a lawsuit.
No-one mentioned it but in my book the best argument against birdshot is after the bad guy recovers he will be in a position to file a lawsuit.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
If you live in a residential area it's important to consider your neighbors safety too. If you shoot 00 buck shot you've got a good chance of sending lead through your neighbors walls. Birdshot would be safer for residential defense and still effective at such close range.
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Found this chart on the internet
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
I dont know about charts or gel to much ,but did shot a deer once with birdshot at about 20 ft in the neck ,thought i had a slug in and was birdshot .The buck did die after awhile ,deer didnt bleed out at all it was internal bleeding when skined the neck was blood shot stew .After seeing it ,i woulndnt wish it on my worst enemy.Deer didnt run nowhere .I think shot placement and range have alot to do with how well it works i was useing 6 shot and the holes where to small for blood to come out.You dont have to take my word but it does work upto 25 ft .
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
I am little surprised to read that many have concerns about buckshot over penetrating when many would use a med bore handgun without that point ever coming up . I tend to agree that a stout load of a larger bird shot like #4 would be very effective at hall way distance . Years ago I was shot while pheasant hunting at a distance off about 60 yards , #6 shot , most didn't penetrate my clothes though I was knocked or fell over either from the impact or being scared that I had been shot .
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
You fell over. People don't get "pushed" by projectiles.Doug Helton wrote:I am little surprised to read that many have concerns about buckshot over penetrating when many would use a med bore handgun without that point ever coming up . I tend to agree that a stout load of a larger bird shot like #4 would be very effective at hall way distance . Years ago I was shot while pheasant hunting at a distance off about 60 yards , #6 shot , most didn't penetrate my clothes though I was knocked or fell over either from the impact or being scared that I had been shot .
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
strangely enough there is a kind of test posted on outdoor hub from 3/18 on this issue , I would post a link but dont know how
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Is this it? http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/ ... e-defense/Doug Helton wrote:strangely enough there is a kind of test posted on outdoor hub from 3/18 on this issue , I would post a link but dont know how
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm" The warrior whispers back, "I am the storm"
"I am a sheepdog, I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf" Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
"Life is Short, Don't Waste It"
"I am a sheepdog, I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf" Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
"Life is Short, Don't Waste It"
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Yup that's the one
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Re: The effectivness of Birdshot for home defense
Kaiser wrote:My own personal testing done with my Saiga 12 gauge (smooth bore no choke 18.5 inch barrel) indicates that birdshot/target loads spread out and lose velocity extremely quickly. At 10 feet or closer it will do tremendous damage, but any further than that and the spread pattern increases exponentially, while losing velocity as well. If it's all you have, then sure go ahead and use it in an emergency. I've read in magazines a few different times where they did testing and the consensus is that #4 buckshot gives you the best balance for home defense use. For my own house, sure birdshot could work in my bedroom, but what if I had to go outside for any number of possible scenarios?
I think a birdshot wound to the torso from under 10 feet would be devastating because even if it doesn't immediately score a central nervous system hit, you have a massive amount of blood being lost from the gaping hole probably 3" in diameter by 4" or more deep.
Here's a simple test: Buy a pork roast or shoulder (can be found pretty cheaply) and shoot it from 5-10 feet away with your choice of birdshot, maybe put an old pair of jeans over it to simulate clothing.
A chunk of drywall will or should show all you had need to know about patterns. I suspect you will find any size shot will penitrate just as good at 10 yards as at 10 feet