Undergunned?

Discuss self defense and carry / EDC / tactics ...
Rigger28
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Undergunned?

Post by Rigger28 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:11 am

I carry a S&W 637-2 on a routine basis. It is also my bedside gun. The other night my wife woke me up in a panic because she thought she heard someone breaking in to our house. I retrieved my pistol and went downstairs. I cleared the house and checked the outside of all the doors for damage. There was none. We realized the next day that the noise was a huge German Shepard who had actually broken through the planks of our cedar fence to try and eat our cat. ( He came through the same hole the next night while we were in the hot tub, very friendly dog actually). Sorry for the long story but my point is I felt VERY undergunned and a little vulnerable with a snubby .38. I have since moved a security shotgun upstairs and I'm considering buying a 1911 to put in my bedside velocity vault. Has anyone ever run into this situation? Thanks, Paul.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by hatchdog » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:27 am

I too carry a snub 38 which I keep in my nightstand when not in my pocket. However I also keep a 9mm in the night stand and like you did, I have a 12 gauge security shotgun with a light mounted nearby. Fortunately I haven't had to respond to a potential problem but if I had to leave the house I would have the shotgun in hand. If I get a knock on the door at an unusual time I would have the 9mm in hand.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Torakan » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:21 am

Interesting question. Most property crime here in the Spokane area is committed when the res/apt occupants are not at home. So the chance of someone breaking in at night when you are home is pretty slim. Thus doesn't apply to car prowling or garage/shop break-in's of course. I myself wouldn't feel under-gunned with a 5 or 6 shot revolver. That said I keep a Glock 22 as my dedicated home defense weapon, with a Mossberg 590 Shockwave in the same drawer (yes I said drawer) in case things go bad fast. But always remember it's not about the weapon, but about tactics and mind set too. Any home defense weapon should also include night sights and a weapon light IMO.
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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Rigger28 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:24 am

Torakan wrote:Interesting question. Most property crime here in the Spokane area is committed when the res/apt occupants are not at home. So the chance of someone breaking in at night when you are home is pretty slim. Thus doesn't apply to car prowling or garage/shop break-in's of course. I myself wouldn't feel under-gunned with a 5 or 6 shot revolver. That said I keep a Glock 22 as my dedicated home defense weapon, with a Mossberg 590 Shockwave in the same drawer (yes I said drawer) in case things go bad fast. But always remember it's not about the weapon, but about tactics and mind set too. Any home defense weapon should also include night sights and a weapon light IMO.
My gunsmith said the best night sights are a shotgun haha.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Torakan » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:28 am

See how that advice works in court. SMH. Identify, evaluate the threat, engage with the appropriate amount of deadly force. Doing otherwise results in a lot of hassle and heartache not to mention MONEY!
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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Rigger28 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:06 am

Torakan wrote:Interesting question. Most property crime here in the Spokane area is committed when the res/apt occupants are not at home. So the chance of someone breaking in at night when you are home is pretty slim. Thus doesn't apply to car prowling or garage/shop break-in's of course. I myself wouldn't feel under-gunned with a 5 or 6 shot revolver. That said I keep a Glock 22 as my dedicated home defense weapon, with a Mossberg 590 Shockwave in the same drawer (yes I said drawer) in case things go bad fast. But always remember it's not about the weapon, but about tactics and mind set too. Any home defense weapon should also include night sights and a weapon light IMO.
I myself always thought that I would feel comfortable with my j-frame for home protection but when there was a real possibility of a threat it felt very small and weak in my hand.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Torakan » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:16 pm

For years back in the 80's to early 90's my only carry/combat firearm was a S&W 15 with a 2" barrel and six rounds. I was really good with that gun and never felt undergunned. It was the only gun my wife was comfortable shooting well so I used it for home defense till about 4 yrs ago. That revolver, a cell phone, and a Surefire 6P were the only items I kept on the nightstand.
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Re: Undergunned?

Post by pacnw » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:31 pm

Quieted .45 with 15+1, laser/light combo and 2 extra mags bedside.
Extra tactical flashlight.

9MM and 2 extra mags on the wife's side.
Extra tactical flashlight.

!2 gauge in the same room.
Extra shells.

Many other firearms throughout the house.
Many other "weapons", as well.

As stated, mindset and continual practice/preparedness are the most important!!! If you are not mentally ready, the physical usually does not matter.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by happy » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:11 pm

You should feel undergunned carrying or using a 38 as your main pistol. There's a reason they're call back up guns.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by hkcavalier » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:51 pm

Your thinking is pretty sound. Most small carry guns make poor "bump in the night" guns. Too much flash, often lack niceties like a light/night sights, etc. I like long barreled handguns myself, but if I end up way out in the sticks (househunting this summer) I'll keep a long gun or two handy in case I need to take care of something in the back 40.

I do the big handgun thing because 1. my wife can't handle 12g recoil 2. rifles fired indoors will (permanently) hurt your ears 3. much easier to maneuver inside a house with a pistol.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Nathan1984 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:01 am

You are however you feel. 10+ years ago I carried my trusty 442 as a backup because a more experienced guy told me to. Time went on, I got into some harrowing situations that gave me pause for thought. Started digging around and doing some shopping and realized that my full sized mags would fit nicely in a mini glock. I switched and haven't looked back.

The point being, I felt totally comfortable with that 5 shot revolver for the intended purpose until I wasn't and then I moved onto something else. Had I not had those learning experiences, I might well still be schluppin around with that little s&w, happy as a pig in sh*t. If you're not comfortable, change it.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Semper-Fi 1970 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:01 am

Interesting points and stories, just remember it is not how big the gun is or how many rounds. It is where the first round is placed and who places it that really matters. A cool head and target acquisition makes a bigger diff then size.
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Re: Undergunned?

Post by 30calholemaker » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:44 am

Shot placement and multiple hits. .02
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Re: Undergunned?

Post by casten_nukes » Wed May 03, 2017 3:32 pm

Just remember that everyone gets firsts, before anyone gets seconds. Just like hunting an elk, it matters more where the shot it placed than what size hole it puts in him.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by Viper-1 » Thu May 04, 2017 10:22 pm

Doesn't matter if you have a fully auto .50 cal, if your tactics suck a guy with a #2 pencil with great tactics will beat you in a room to room fight. Learn to shoot your weapon quickly and accurately. There are guys that will put 6 rounds into somebody with the same wheel gun, speed reload and dump another 6 before the hi-cap, light and laser bearing semi auto is half empty cause the other guy didn't train as much.
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Re: Undergunned?

Post by chexmix » Sun May 14, 2017 1:20 pm

After reading this, it changed my mind about home defense, SP101,3 inch, my wife shoots it with no problem at all. This on ruger forum, with credit to Iowegan . Both our revolvers are loaded with 148 grain HBWC. GP100 4 inch, and the wifes SP101 3 inch. Preparation for Home Protection
Preparation for Home Protection
by
Iowegan

There is so much hype about what gun is best or what ammo will shoot through three New York City phone books that most gun owners get confused on what's fact and what's fiction. To complicate matters, the so-called "experts" that write articles for gun magazines, corrupt your mind with even more garbage. Seems every new gun or type of ammo they test is the best ever in the whole world.

I thought I would give the Iowegan point of view on the subject with unbiased, common sense risk assessment information. I don't claim to be an expert but I do have many years of experience. We'll start with some really basic stuff to include options for firearms, ammunition, accessories, sighting systems, and good old common sense procedures.

There are many different things to consider when using a weapon to protect yourself or loved ones in your home. There can be a huge difference in what you legally can or can't do based on state and local laws. Example: in a few states, you are within your rights to use lethal force to protect your property. Most states exclude this and only allow you to protect yourself and other people. All states support home protection, without any special type of permit or license, other than what it takes to buy a gun. This document is not intended to be a legal guide so check the laws for your local area before you get in trouble.

Before we get into the details, let's define the basic concepts. Your goal with home protection is to keep yourself and household members out of harm's way should your home be invaded or if someone in your home is at risk of being attacked. The mission is to stop the attack, not to kill, maim, or destroy. In other words, don't do stupid macho things so the wrong person ends up in prison or innocent people get hurt. Always keep this in mind.

There are hundreds of firearms to choose from but really only a few that meet the "sanity test" for home defense. I look at firearms just like I do with tools .... always select the right one for the right job. In the bedroom, you want a gun that is easy and safe to use. If you wake up to an intrusion, you don't want anything that requires much thinking or dexterity to operate. Your self-defense weapon(s) should be stored in a loaded and ready condition. When time is of the essence, you don't want to be fumbling about trying to insert cartridges in a revolver or inserting a magazine in a pistol. There are too many opportunities to fail if you don't follow these basic concepts. In my narrow-minded opinion, a revolver is much better suited for the bedroom than any other type. All you have to do is point and shoot ... no inserting a magazine, jacking a slide, or even operating a safety catch; just point and pull the trigger. Most any revolver from a snub nose up to a 6" barrel will do nicely. Anything longer than a 6" barrel gets a bit unmanageable. Typically, you don't need a lot of firepower in a bedroom gun. Five or six rounds should be more than enough.

To be effective, home defense weapons must be loaded and positioned for quick access. Of course the presence of non-adults require additional safety equipment such as a GunValut, see: http://www.gunvault.com/handgunsafesminivaultstandard/ or an equivalent. Depending on your home's floor plan, you may need additional firearms or you may have to transport a single firearm from place to place. There's not much sense in having a gun in the bedroom if you have to run upstairs to get it and leave your family unprotected while a bad guy kicks the front door in. Firearms located in key areas of the home can be a revolver or pistol. Just make sure they are located in the area where they will be accessible. Just like a fire extinguisher, you don't want the fire between you and an escape route, likewise you don't want the bad guy to get between you and your family. Find a "retreat area" in your home where you can go if someone is kicking the door down. Again, depending on floor plans, you may need more than one retreat areas, which would require more than one firearm. In my home, the master bathroom is my retreat area. From that location, I can arm myself and get positioned between the bad guy and my family. My wife and I occasionally go over our "emergency action plan" to make sure we both remember what to do. My wife heads for the master bedroom and I rush to the bathroom. From there, I open the GunVault and grab the revolver. I then have the advantage over the bad guy. If I'm not home, my wife knows the drill too.

Here's some criteria for a home defense firearms and ammunition. You don't need and in fact don't want some big magnum gun loaded with bear killer loads. You want a weapon with manageable recoil, non-deafening sound, minimal muzzle flash, and loaded with ammo that won't pass through the walls and injure or kill the family next door or the person in the next bedroom. Granted, there's no such thing as a perfect cartridge but if you stack the odds in your favor, chances are you will emerge the victor without accidentally shooting an innocent victim. Of all the ammunition on the market, 38 Special lead hollow base wadcutters do the best job of meeting all the criteria. Wadcutters are intended for target loads so they are very accurate and low power, thus minimal recoil. The bullet is designed to cut a nice clean hole in the target instead of tearing a hole like a round nose bullet would do. They do the same with flesh and create a nasty wound that bleeds profusely. Because the loads are quite light, you won't get a muzzle flash to blind you nor will you blow your ear drums out like a more powerful load will do when fired indoors without hearing protection. Last, the soft lead bullet will flatten when it hits any solid object. Likely they won't go through an outside wall at all, and will lose most of their power if they go through an inside wall.

There really isn't a good comparable load for a semi-auto. One weapon that meets most of the needs is a 45 ACP loaded with low power lead semi-wadcutters. Light target loads won't function well in most 45 ACP pistols without installing a light recoil spring. They tend to penetrate deeply so walls aren't much of an obstacle to innocent victims.

For home defense, ammunition tends to drive the type of firearm. In this case, a 38 Special or 357 Mag revolver loaded with 38 Special 148 gr HBWCs is the overall best solution for a bedside gun. It's also a good solution for a retreat area weapon, however some people prefer a semi-auto pistol.

Home defense weapons don't need many accessories. Unless you plan to carry the weapon, holsters are not recommended because they just take extra access time. A GunVault mini-safe is a good idea if there are non-adults in the house. Access time from a GunVault isn't much different than a gun sitting on a shelf. A loaded speedloader or magazine isn't a bad idea even though statistics don't support some big firefight in home invasion scenarios. Standard factory fixed or adjustable sights are fine. I like the Crimson Trace Laser Grips and have a set on my bedside revolver. It's very intimidating when a bad guy sees a red dot on his chest. Besides, it makes the weapon much easier to aim in low light conditions and from awkward positions. Action jobs, or other custom work is not necessary ... just a basic weapon that functions flawless.

This is no time to skimp so buy a good quality weapon. Though snub nose revolvers or compact pistols will work, the most manageable weapons are full sized guns with 4 to 6 inch barrels. Ruger GP-100s or S&W Mod 586/686 with a 4" barrel top the list. The larger size and heavier weights are in your favor, especially because you don't have to carry the weapon on your person. Your home defense weapon can also be used as a CCW or as a range gun for fun and practice. Unless you live alone, make sure other adults in your home can also handle the gun.

38 Special, or 357 Mag with 38 Special HBWCs: low muzzle flash, low recoil, modest noise level, excellent accuracy, adequate stopping power, unlikely to penetrate walls. (best)

9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, or 44 Special: low muzzle flash, modest recoil, very loud, good accuracy, excellent stopping power, likely to penetrate both internal and external walls. (marginal)

380 ACP, 32 ACP or 22 LR: Modest muzzle flash, low recoil, modest noise level, poor accuracy, marginal stopping power, likely to penetrate interior wall but not exterior.
(poor)

Shotgun: excessive muzzle flash, heavy recoil, excessively loud, hard to miss accuracy, excessive close range stopping power, wall penetration depends on shot size and distance. (bad choice for indoors, excellent choice for outdoors)

357 Mag or 44 Mag: excessive muzzle flash, heavy to excessive recoil, excessively loud, good accuracy for the first shot only, overkill stopping power, excessive wall penetration. (bad choice)

Don't confuse home protection with trespassing on the property outside the home. Here's where an additional shotgun may be the best tool for the job. Just remember ..... in most states, the laws for inside the home and outside the home aren't the same. Check it out.

In conclusion, use some brains when selecting weapons or ammunition. Forget the macho crap and base your decisions on a good common sense risk assessment. Practice with your weapons, your equipment, and your accessories and make sure they all perform to your satisfaction. Make an "emergency plan" and use it. All adults in the home should be proficient with the weapons and know where and how to access them.
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Old May 8th, 2008, 05:02 AM #2
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All sound advice. Well thought out and a good read for anyone on the forum. Although I might possibly differ on a few things to suit my own opinion or circumstance I could get by

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by hkcavalier » Sun May 14, 2017 5:00 pm

I prefer a long barreled 9mm. Low flash, relatively low noise (compared with the bigger chamberings), lots of ammo on tap. Light, tritium sights, and you're ready to go. Any of the competition-size 9mms are great.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by dillonivik » Wed May 24, 2017 12:00 am

My wife and I recently had a similar situation happen, big argument woke us up, there were 4 people in our front yard yelling. I retrieved my pistol, called 911 and observed the happenings. I did feel undergunned having only a sub compact 380 in my hand, but as soon as I saw my wife holding a rifle ready to go I felt good as could be. My take away is home defense should be a family issue, no matter how big the gun is, if you are just one against even two, you can be defeated. The more people you have on your side, the better the odds, and the more intimidating you become.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by chexmix » Wed May 24, 2017 6:21 pm

You and your wife did right, stay inside, call the cops, keep the lights out on the inside of the house, and be a good witness. However, if they come thru the door, all bets are off. There is security in numbers.

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Re: Undergunned?

Post by dillonivik » Mon May 29, 2017 6:46 am

Thanks, im the kind of guy that, though I have some training and a fair amount of trigger time, always tries to avoid any kind of potentially violent confrontation. I was content to let the people yell in my front yard while I gave dispatch a play by play until the police got there. But I will say had they gained entry into the house, lead would be going down range...

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