Pocket guns

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ron
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by ron » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:44 pm

BC38 wrote:

It is debatable whether the 32acp with 71gr FMJ's or JHPs is as effective as the 380 with 95gr FMJs or JHPs. What is not debatable is that the 32acp SD ammo tops out at about 260 ft-lbs ME, whereas the 380 tops out at about 425 ft-lbs ME.
Hold on just a cotton picking minute! I'd like to know who makes a 380 load that tops out at 425 ft-lbs ME and who makes the gun that will handle the pressures necessary to achieve those figures out of a dinky little 380 case.

Buffalo Bore's hottest load is 380 Auto +P HC-FN 100 grain hard cast flatnose that produces 1150 fps and 294 ft-lbs ME, while Underwood's 380 Auto +p Gold Dot HP 90 grain does 1200 fps 288 Fpe and Speer's gold dot only drives a 90 grain GDHP 990 fps 196 fpe and the average 380 load produces about 200 FPE.

Your figures on the 32 auto are also inflated. The average FPE for the 32 auto is about 140 FPE while the buffalo bore 32 ACP plus+ p load will drive a hardcast 75 grain flatnose at 1150 FPS for a ME of 220 foot lbs. 7 rounds of that ammo in a keltec P-32 is nothing to sneeze at and does better better than a .380 Speer gold dot 90 grain GDHP at 990 fps 196 fpe or even the Remington Golden Saber load that drives a 102 grain brass jacketed Hollowpoint at 940 FPS for 200 FPE . That's why I prefer a 9mm Makarov to a 380 because Underwood makes a 115 grain plus+p load for the 9mm Mak that drives that 115 grain bullet at 1000 fps.

We are all entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts, so check your sources. I think you may have been looking at 9mm Plus P data rather than any 380 data in existence to get a figure like 425 ft-lbs ME.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by BC38 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:03 am

ron wrote:
BC38 wrote:

It is debatable whether the 32acp with 71gr FMJ's or JHPs is as effective as the 380 with 95gr FMJs or JHPs. What is not debatable is that the 32acp SD ammo tops out at about 260 ft-lbs ME, whereas the 380 tops out at about 425 ft-lbs ME.
Hold on just a cotton picking minute! I'd like to know who makes a 380 load that tops out at 425 ft-lbs ME and who makes the gun that will handle the pressures necessary to achieve those figures out of a dinky little 380 case.

Buffalo Bore's hottest load is 380 Auto +P HC-FN 100 grain hard cast flatnose that produces 1150 fps and 294 ft-lbs ME, while Underwood's 380 Auto +p Gold Dot HP 90 grain does 1200 fps 288 Fpe and Speer's gold dot only drives a 90 grain GDHP 990 fps 196 fpe and the average 380 load produces about 200 FPE.

Your figures on the 32 auto are also inflated. The average FPE for the 32 auto is about 140 FPE while the buffalo bore 32 ACP plus+ p load will drive a hardcast 75 grain flatnose at 1150 FPS for a ME of 220 foot lbs. 7 rounds of that ammo in a keltec P-32 is nothing to sneeze at and does better better than a .380 Speer gold dot 90 grain GDHP at 990 fps 196 fpe or even the Remington Golden Saber load that drives a 102 grain brass jacketed Hollowpoint at 940 FPS for 200 FPE . That's why I prefer a 9mm Makarov to a 380 because Underwood makes a 115 grain plus+p load for the 9mm Mak that drives that 115 grain bullet at 1000 fps.

We are all entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts, so check your sources. I think you may have been looking at 9mm Plus P data rather than any 380 data in existence to get a figure like 425 ft-lbs ME.
Read back a couple of posts my friend - the last couple of exchanges between Badger and I.

The data came from Ballistics By The Inch and he made the point - and I acknowledged it - that I mistakenly quoted the highest ME numbers from the hottest ammo listed when fired from an 18" barrel.

In the same post I also noted that the 95gr 380 from a 2" barrel is listed at 220 ft-lbs ME and the 71gr 32acp when fired from a 2" barrel barely hits 100 ft-lbs ME. I only chose the 71gr 32acp and the 95gr 380 as examples because they were what was referenced in earlier posts. So not only does my point stand, but the gap between the two calibers is even wider when you look at the right numbers for these two calibers out of a 2" pocket gun.

BTW, comparing the HOTTEST 32acp load to the AVERAGE 380 load is an apples to oranges comparison. You need to either compare average to average or hottest to hottest and the measured numbers need to be from the same length barrel. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from - the manufacturers maybe? But you didn't list barrel lengths for any of them, and that is a critical piece when making this comparison.

Looking at the data for the loads tested on Ballistics By The Inch (which I think is generally regarded by most people as a pretty authoritative source) the HOTTEST listed 380 load is Buffalo Bore 90gr JHP at 220 ft-lbs from a 2" barrel, and the HOTTEST listed 32acp load is the CorBon 60gr JHP at 115 ft-lbs ME from a 2" barrel. In fact the WEAKEST 380 listed was the Hornady 90gr HP/XP at 120 ft-lbs from a 2" barrel - which was slightly higher than the HOTTEST listed 32acp load from the same barrel.

Here are the graphs so you can see where my numbers come from and confirm them for yourself.
32 ACP http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/32auto.html
380 http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megr ... o2010.html

FWIW, I also agree that 9mm is a far more potent caliber - about as much better than 380 as 380 is compared to 32acp. I'd like to take a look at your little Mak. IIRC they are more comparable in size and weight to the subcompacts chambered in 9x19. Like the PF9, LC9, DB9, etc. When I'm going for something in that size class, I pack one of my compact 9x19s - there are some REAL barn-burners in that caliber and the practice ammo is WAY more affordable and available.

But then you already knew I'm not into niche guns/calibers so much...
Always looking for a deal on more ammo and reloading components.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by ron » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:09 am

I'm not trying to make the case that the 32 auto is more powerful than or even equal to the 380, because for the most part it isn't as far as paper ballistics. But there are some loads that are comparable. What I found hard to believe was that 425 foot-pounds from ANY 380 load but the 18 inch barrel estimated? velocity explains it, though I have to wonder if Ballistics by the inch actually had an 18 inch barrel made and chambered it for 380 and chronagraphed it of if they just estimated it.

I got my ballistics from Ballistics 101 and then I verified it for the buffalo bore loads by going to buffalo Bore's website for the buffalo bore loads. I did mention the ballistics of the buffalo bore 380 load in my post even though I didn't make the direct comparison on those loads but it was there for everyone to see.

For the record, the hottest buffalo bore load for the 380 produces 294 ft/lbs and the hottest buffalo bore load for the 32 produces 220 FPE

Ballistics 101 gets it's data from the manufacturer but Buffalo bore tests their ammo in actual firearms rather than test barrels.

I'm not trying to rag on you, or start a pissing match. I just knew that there was something very wrong with those figures that you quoted and usually anything that you post is right on the money. Now I understand. And as you have said, Barrel length is very important when making Apples-to-apples comparisons and I never imagined that there even was such a thing a rifle chambered for .380 auto.

http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php

http://www.ballistics101.com/32_acp.php

Buffalo bore 32 ACP: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=132
➤ 1001 fps -- Berretta Mod. 70, 3 inch bbl.
➤ 910 fps -- Kel Tek, 2.5 inch bbl
➤ 856 fps -- Seecamp, 2 inch bbl.

Buffalo bore 380 acp: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=127
➤ 1160 fps -- BDA-3.75 inch barrel
➤ 1149 fps -- Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel
➤ 1072 fps -- Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel
➤ 1061 fps -- Keltec
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by BC38 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:41 am

ron wrote:...I'm not trying to rag on you, or start a pissing match. I just knew that there was something very wrong with those figures that you quoted and usually anything that you post is right on the money. Now I understand. And as you have said, Barrel length is very important when making Apples-to-apples comparisons and I never imagined that there even was such a thing a rifle chambered for .380 auto.
Ditto that man. No ragging or pissing here either. I respect your opinion, because your stuff is also accurate and well thought out.
When I first posted the numbers from the 18" barrels I wasn't paying close enough attention.
How they got numbers for 18" barrels - anybody's guess. I've never seen a 380 or 32acp rifle OR a pistol with a barrel anywhere near that long. Probably an extrapolation.
Always looking for a deal on more ammo and reloading components.
I've tried to see things from the liberal point of view - but I'm just not flexible enough to get my head up my ...

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Flawlessfoose » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:27 pm

I just got this email today from underwoodammo. It's on the 32 acp haha and Beretta tomcat ironically.
The 32 with there bullet will definitely kill a man.
Check it out, Underwood makes some of the absolute best ammo.
I just order some 45 supers, there penatratore bullet and same in 357 mag along with some 180 hardcast.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9eGKBTDcKbc

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by hatchdog » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:46 am

Moscow wrote:
hatchdog wrote:After several years of carrying a Kahr P380 I switched back to a revolver, mostly due to my love of wheel guns but also the comfort that no amount of pocket lint or other debris is going to make it unreliable. I carry a Ruger LCR with Speer 130 short barrel HP's and two Bianchi Speed Strips loaded with five rounds each. I use a pocket holster that covers the entire cylinder and trigger and as it is hammerless there really isn't anyplace for much lint to enter the works.
What brand and model holster do you use with the LCR?

It is my carry gun of choice as well, however I put 6 rounds in my speedstrips just cuz.

I use this leather holster daily. Don't know the brand. Got it on Ebay for $10

Works slick.

Image
My holster is a Tagua brand, I think I bought if from Amazon. I previously didn't load six in my speedloaders due to the fact the strip is designed to load two cartridges at a time and I thought that would be a possible problem when loading the fifth by itself. But, after reading your post I loaded six in the strip and did a couple of loading. I found the sixth round did not interfere as I thought so like you I increased my back up ammo to 12. :D


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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Bravery » Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:51 pm

Lcp 2 is where it's at. New trigger and new slide lock.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by thumpar » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:40 pm

Bravey wrote:Lcp 2 is where it's at. New trigger and new slide lock.
Just before they stopped making the original LCP they made a Custom model of it with better trigger, stainless guide rod and removable sights. My guess is it was kind of a prototype for the LCP2 built on the old frame. They were a limited run and are becoming harder to find with a price tag that keeps going up. I bought 2 of them when they first made them, one never fired. Personally I like the looks of the original better than the new one.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Ncooper289 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:30 am

I know its an older thread but I just joined the group and thought id add my $.02.

I pocket carry quiet regularly. I've also gone through a few of the pistols suggested here..

First pistol choice was the S&W Bodyguard. Pre M&P
Great size.. too thin and not very pleasurable to shoot. Plus the DAO trigger bugged the hell out of me.

Second pistol was/is a M&P shield 40 great pistol in my opinion. Problem is wont fit in all my jean pockets. Though i have a great alien gear iwb holster, but im getting fluffy in my old age and im too cheap to buy new jeans with a bigger waist size..

Third pistol I tried an lcp 1 and it i didn't care for it. Dao trigger etc. Bummer because i like Ruger pistols..

4th pistol is a Kimber micro really like this pistol. Has more weight to it. Its a SAO trigger and very similar to a 1911. Shoots nicely. Point and shoot and hits what it point at. If i take time to aim it will shoot nice groups..
Had 1 FTE on the very last round of a magazine at round 63. Haven't had an issue since.

5th pistol. Why stop because I've found the pistol i like. There's no such thing as too many guns.. plus the wife said its ok but i had to let her pick one she liked. Ok, no pink guns though.. she agreed. #5 is a Sig P238 SAS. Good choice. The wife likes the Kimber too but didn't want to spend that much.. the Sig was $120 less.
We only have 50 rounds through it so far. Feels good in the hand. Less recoil than the kimber. Doesn't point and shoot as well as the kimber. I shoot high and the wife shoots low. I doubt its the pistols fault..

Plan is to go out today and put another 100 rds through it.

Any ways just my $.o2..

If you have the funds.. i recomend some of the high end guns..

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by dillonivik » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:55 pm

My absolute favorite pistol is my SIG P238. Im a big time pocket pistol guy and have carried them all, I settled on the SIG. Its accurate, reliable and it also satisfies my inner 1911 guy. The pistol really jives with me, and I have about 2700 rounds through it, no issues other than can be attributed to weak ammo.

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by deerbandit » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:27 am

I recently got a Glock 43 and I carry it in a Blue Force gear pocket holster. It is so easy to carry and draw that I now carry much more than the Glock 23 I used to carry, the holster is amazing. I got the 43 for my Wife as I was no fan of 9mm, but I have to admit I really like the gun. I did have to practice a bit since it was a brand new way to carry. Didnt take long to get it down. Anyhting that gets me to carry more often is a good thing I believe. I edited this to say I didnt like 9mm because for the most part I have shot .45 ACP and for the last 22 years ,40 cal and shoot it well. I saw no reason to get another carry gun. My thing has always been the best caliber is the one you shoot best. My Wife and daughter do not like my .40 because they say it is just too snappy for them. Thats why I got the 9mm in the first place. Hopefully that saves me from any haters.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Roland the Headless » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:59 am

good vid on a good pocket gun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6CzbT-I8Ew
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by toddSpokane » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:47 am

Smith 642 in Kramer horsehide pocket holster. I have carried this for years when not carrying my 19. Switching to a Glock 42 in the next month or so... It is much easier to shoot than the j frame Smith and carries two extra rounds. The new .380 ammo is very effective and 200 rounds of golden saber has been reliable so far. In my opinion, the lcp is to small to manipulate and the long trigger pull makes the gun to hard to shoot at speed.
I am looking for:

S&W 657 4"
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Glock 29SF or 29 upper
And ground squirrels or marmots

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Blacklion66 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:13 am

Why do you want a pocket gun should be the 1st consideration☺

everday hoodlums? 99 percent that you will ever encounter are cowards, the bark of a little pipsqueak 22 short is going to send them running I prefer something such as my little beretta 25 auto.

Gangs? again most are cowards however most will be armed, most could not hit a barn at 20 feet even if inside the barn. Your weapon should be something that you can hit a man sized target with at less than 10 feet without aiming. If you have never been shot at or returned fire, you should not be carrying in a area where you might encounter armed thugs unless you have attended at least one self defense handgun course. without training or experience most people will hesitate before returning aimed fire at someone shooting in their direction

Your carry gun main purpose should be to get you out of a situation where you do not have to use it.

just a old farts thoughts :idea:

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by ashethedivine » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:57 pm

ripcuda wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:54 pm
LostInWA wrote:I just got an LC9 yesterday, haven't shot it yet. The size is what I wanted, but the
trigger pull is a bit long. That can be remedied. If it shoots well it will be a keeper.
The LC9 is a great gun. I love mine. Been flawless for me. The trigger is very long though. I'd be very interested to know how you could shorten the trigger pull.

That said... it don't fit as a pocket gun... in any pants I wear. I does ride nicely in a Theis IWB holster I use though.

Cheers!
One nice thing about the long trigger pull is it lessens the chance of an accidental discharge- including the presented pistol- do I really have to shoot this guy moment.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Flawlessfoose » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:04 pm

I really like my Sig P238. I've shot a few little 380 acp, but the Sig just stands out above them for accuracy and hit ability and recoil management for its little tiny size
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by ihcrazy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:19 pm

+1 for the LCP Custom. Only way I have committed to fulltime carry in 30yrs. Would rather have my G19 , G22 , or SRH .454 but those are usually not convenient.

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by CheapJeep » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:33 pm

ashethedivine wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:57 pm
ripcuda wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:54 pm
LostInWA wrote:I just got an LC9 yesterday, haven't shot it yet. The size is what I wanted, but the
trigger pull is a bit long. That can be remedied. If it shoots well it will be a keeper.
The LC9 is a great gun. I love mine. Been flawless for me. The trigger is very long though. I'd be very interested to know how you could shorten the trigger pull.

That said... it don't fit as a pocket gun... in any pants I wear. I does ride nicely in a Theis IWB holster I use though.

Cheers!
One nice thing about the long trigger pull is it lessens the chance of an accidental discharge- including the presented pistol- do I really have to shoot this guy moment.
+1. The trigger on the 1st gen LC9 is very revolver like, and that is one of my favorite things about it.
I carry mine in a pocket all the time. Even with a pocket holster and with pinky extension on the mag.
About the only time I can't do that is when I'm wearing some jeans that have shallower pockets.
I can even carry it in the pocket of my sweat pants. Though they tend to sag on that side with the gun in the pocket.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Torakan » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:54 pm

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Did someone say pocket guns?
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by roger » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:34 am

If those are the .32 Tomcats I'd check the frames. See my post earlier. Best shooting pocket gun in my opinion.......well for about 50 rounds anyway. :cry:

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