Pocket guns

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by BC38 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:36 am

Another vote for the TCP. It isn't a frequent carry, but I do drop it in a pocket when I'm around the house or need to go somewhere low risk when my wardrobe doesn't lend itself to a bigger CCW.
It has been flawless. Nary a FTF, FTE, stovepipe, etc.
With these pocket semi-autos a FIRM grip is essential - no limp wristing....
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by ron » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:58 pm

for years I carried a Keltec P-32 in my Strong side (Right) Pants pocket and I learned a couple of lessons about pocket carry. First of all you must never carry anything in the pocket BUYT the gun. There was an article in a magazine about a guy with a p-32 who was getting gas and put his keys in the pocket with his gun and then when he patted the outside of his pocket to feel if the keys were in there he pushed the round head of one of his keys through the trigger guard and it cammed back the trigger and fired the gun, grazing his leg and the round struck the ground and ricochet'ed and hit the corner of the building bu8t no one saw it happen so He took off.

The other thing that's important is to inspect the gun daily every night when you take out your key's, wallet knife, and gun from your pants. When you carry 24-7-365, lint WILL accumulate if you go for a week or more without inspecting your gun. I eventually "retired" the keltec after several years because I practiced with it regularly and round count was way over 1000 and I decided to upgrade to a PF9 but that gun is a piece of crap with it's stamped steel extractor that does not work even after sending the gun back to Kel-tec. Now even the P-32's have stamped steel extractors and I would never trust one.

Now I carry an old model 38 airwieght smith and Wesson "Bodyguard" which was the original Bodyguard with the humpback shroud that covers the hammer except fro a little nub that sticks out so you can cock it. I put a Wolf Hammer spring in it and it has a sweet trigger pull. I carry Underwood Wadcutters in it because with the skinny grips recoil is brutal. I refuse to put fat grips on it because that would defeat the purpose of being a pocket gun but I do have a Tyler T-grip adaptor which helps a lot.

I also occasionally carry a Polish P-64 in 9mm Makarov with Underwood 115 grain hardcast flatnose loads in it and that gives it more power than any .380 load. If Glock made the G42 in 9mm Makarov that would be the perfect pocket gun. As it is, the P-64 is all steel and is a little larger overall than a walther PPK and is really a little too big for pocket carry depending on what pants you wear. I don't normally like DA/SA triggers but I've practice cocking the hammer before firing so my first shot will be accurate and like most blowbacks these are accurate little guns. They also have hard chrome lined barrels like many Russian and Soviet bloc guns, The DA trigger on these guns is stiff even with aftermarket springs and cocking it single action seems to be the way to go for me anyway.

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Last edited by ron on Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by thumpar » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:21 pm

I had a TCP and now have the LCP custom. The LCP has a better trigger. They are pretty close otherwise.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Doug Helton » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:50 pm

I have the NAA guardian and given its all metal it's more easily controlled than the Keltec it replaced , I also have a small stack of j frames and though it probably means that I am just old fashioned I just have more faith in operation in a small wheel gun than in small semi auto's

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by bladebum » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:05 pm

Doug Helton wrote:>>>>> I also have a small stack of j frames and though it probably means that I am just old fashioned I just have more faith in operation in a small wheel gun than in small semi auto's
+1 :D
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Badger » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:15 pm

LCR 38 with Hogue Bantam grips. Reliable, concealable, sweet trigger.

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by roger » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:49 am

GBear wrote:
30calholemaker wrote:I carry a Beretta Tomcat in .32 auto. Nice little pistol. It travels well in a pant pocket or jacket pocket. I can hit milk jugs all day from 25 yards. The only draw back is the typical Beretta double action first shot. But if you needed it the first pull would be like a single action.

I also have a Beretta Tomcat 32ACP. Added the crimson red dot laser, fits nice in the hand. Beretta also makes the Bobcat 21 in 22cal. Same gun, slightly smaller. Nice part is it will fire with NO MAG in chamber. With the tilt barrel, just insert a single cartridge and trigger away. Also for a small pocket pistol, I prefer the Single / Double action, with safety lock. I can keep zero chambered, with safety on. Then pull back the slide to chamber first round and cocked and ready to rock at same time. Or one in the chamber, no slide racking needed. Just pull back the top of the trigger assembly into locked position, as long as a round in the chamber already. No obvious racking of the slide that way. Just a little click sound and I am ready to go. Then lock the safety as if a Single Action Cocked and locked. Purchased the 22lr version for my wife who has very small hands. The tilt up barrel makes it easy for one to load first round without the slide being racked. Just pull back the hammer, safety on, full mag loaded and you are ready to go. Have had mine for several years and purchased lots of ammo when Obama was in first race. It feeds all my high tech hollow points, etc without a hitch. I call it my mini Beretta M9.

Beretta Tomcat 32ACPs are very well known for cracked frames. I have two of them bought new and both cracked frames in the same area after very low round counts. Make sure to check yours often. I'll try to post a picture when I get home from work or you can google search, it is a very common problem. Beretta's customer service on these was horrible as well. I would never buy or recommend a Beretta product again.

These are not mine, and Beretta would not replace mine but here is where they are cracking.




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Re: Pocket guns

Post by ron » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:40 pm

roger wrote:
GBear wrote:
30calholemaker wrote:I carry a Beretta Tomcat in .32 auto. Nice little pistol. It travels well in a pant pocket or jacket pocket. I can hit milk jugs all day from 25 yards. The only draw back is the typical Beretta double action first shot. But if you needed it the first pull would be like a single action.


Beretta Tomcat 32ACPs are very well known for cracked frames. I have two of them bought new and both cracked frames in the same area after very low round counts. Make sure to check yours often. I'll try to post a picture when I get home from work or you can google search, it is a very common problem. Beretta's customer service on these was horrible as well. I would never buy or recommend a Beretta product again.

These are not mine, and Beretta would not replace mine but here is where they are cracking.


In the owners manual it warns against using any ammo that produces more than 130 ft·lbs of muzzle energy. That means no buffalo bore, cor-bon or any kind of specialty ammo. Winchester silvertips are OK and produce 125 ft·lbs of muzzle energy.

I would prefer a Kel-tec 32 to any other pocket pistol on the market except that they no longer make the little gun with a coil spring loaded claw extractor but instead make it with a stamped spring steel extractor which may be not be as reliable, because I made the mistake of getting a keltec PF9 and the stamped steel extractor absolutely does not work on that gun.

The Kel-tec P-32 has no safety to have to fool around with and is a striker fired DA only and can be safely carried with around in the chamber and it is the absolute smallest most lightweight most concealable pistol made that holds 6 rounds plus one in the chamber and is a locked breech design that can handle the hot 75 grain buffalo bore ammo.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by roger » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:28 pm

Both of mine cracked using light loads, and maybe 1 box of silver tips between the 2.

Edit: The only thing either of these have had ran through them is a couple of boxes of Winchester 71 grain and half a box of Silvertips.

Image

Image

I'll quit hijacking the thread, I just want people to know about this issue as well as Berettas customer service. Still a bit pissed off that after an email and pictures their response was basically to buy the newer upgraded version. (which are also cracking)
Last edited by roger on Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by BC38 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:34 pm

ron wrote:In the owners manual it warns against using any ammo that produces more than 130 ft·lbs of muzzle energy. That means no buffalo bore, cor-bon or any kind of specialty ammo. Winchester silvertips are OK and produce 125 ft·lbs of muzzle energy.

I would prefer a Kel-tec 32 to any other pocket pistol on the market except that they no longer make the little gun with a coil spring loaded claw extractor but instead make it with a stamped spring steel extractor which may be not be as reliable, because I made the mistake of getting a keltec PF9 and the stamped steel extractor absolutely does not work on that gun.

The Kel-tec P-32 has no safety to have to fool around with and is a striker fired DA only and can be safely carried with around in the chamber and it is the absolute smallest most lightweight most concealable pistol made that holds 6 rounds plus one in the chamber and is a locked breech design that can handle the hot 75 grain buffalo bore ammo.
I've thought about one of those little P3ATs, but I think I'd rather have a nice stainless Seacamp 32ACP.
If I were going to get one - which I doubt I will. Just not enough gun for my taste. I know the 32ACP was gun enough for Bond, but I'm not quite the man he is ;)
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Doug Helton » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:42 pm

I had a couple of see amps and they were unreliable even after LENGTHY times back at their shop , I still have my p32 but think I will take it down to the gun show this weekend . The Keltec worked well however I found that the way I carried it I was constantly hitting the mag release and always had a clip hanging . I wouldn't feel too badly about the 32 acp as the Germans used it extensively in the last global dust up with good results

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by ron » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:50 pm

Doug Helton wrote:I had a couple of see amps and they were unreliable even after LENGTHY times back at their shop , I still have my p32 but think I will take it down to the gun show this weekend . The Keltec worked well however I found that the way I carried it I was constantly hitting the mag release and always had a clip hanging . I wouldn't feel too badly about the 32 acp as the Germans used it extensively in the last global dust up with good results
A lot of people have been killed with the 32 auto over the 100 plus years that it's been in use and in actual street shgootings as oppose to Jello tests, the FMJ's are probably more effective than th hollowpoints, and this is likly true of the 380's as well because these small calibers just don't have the energy to make the hollowpoints work or the sectional density to penetrate very well and fmj's penetrate better than JHPs.

When Andy Warhol the famous artist was shot in 1968 with ONE round of 32 ACP 71 grain fmj, he was rushed to a hospital in an ambulance and at the hospital he flat-lined and was pronounced clinically dead. The doctors cut open his chest and massaged his heart. They were amazed by the damage caused by the bullet which went through his lung, then ricocheted through his esophagus, gall bladder, liver, spleen, and intestines before exiting his left side, leaving a large hole. He is dead for 1 1/2 minutes before they revive him. They operate for five and a half hours, removing his spleen. He is in critical condition, but survives.

Bullets do much different things inside the Human body than they do inside a block of Jello. I had a 32 ACP chambered Davis derringer and half of all FMJ ammo would impact the target sideways and I have read other accounts of the 32 Auto tumbling inside the human body. Many people make a big deal about the importance of "One-shot-stop" capability but that's looking at things in terms of THEORY, not tactics, which is why with any gun, you need to keep firing until either the gun is empty OR the threat is neutralized.

I consider the 32 auto equal to the 380 but far superior to the 25 ACP yet most people put the 32 in the same category as the 25. But like the 22 Long rifle, (when fired out of a RIFLE) the 32 auto has lethality way out of proportion to it's size and from what paper ballistics would indicate.
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by hatchdog » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:51 am

After several years of carrying a Kahr P380 I switched back to a revolver, mostly due to my love of wheel guns but also the comfort that no amount of pocket lint or other debris is going to make it unreliable. I carry a Ruger LCR with Speer 130 short barrel HP's and two Bianchi Speed Strips loaded with five rounds each. I use a pocket holster that covers the entire cylinder and trigger and as it is hammerless there really isn't anyplace for much lint to enter the works.

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by BC38 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:47 am

ron wrote:
Doug Helton wrote:I had a couple of see amps and they were unreliable even after LENGTHY times back at their shop , I still have my p32 but think I will take it down to the gun show this weekend . The Keltec worked well however I found that the way I carried it I was constantly hitting the mag release and always had a clip hanging . I wouldn't feel too badly about the 32 acp as the Germans used it extensively in the last global dust up with good results
A lot of people have been killed with the 32 auto over the 100 plus years that it's been in use and in actual street shgootings as oppose to Jello tests, the FMJ's are probably more effective than th hollowpoints, and this is likly true of the 380's as well because these small calibers just don't have the energy to make the hollowpoints work or the sectional density to penetrate very well and fmj's penetrate better than JHPs.

When Andy Warhol the famous artist was shot in 1968 with ONE round of 32 ACP 71 grain fmj, he was rushed to a hospital in an ambulance and at the hospital he flat-lined and was pronounced clinically dead. The doctors cut open his chest and massaged his heart. They were amazed by the damage caused by the bullet which went through his lung, then ricocheted through his esophagus, gall bladder, liver, spleen, and intestines before exiting his left side, leaving a large hole. He is dead for 1 1/2 minutes before they revive him. They operate for five and a half hours, removing his spleen. He is in critical condition, but survives.

Bullets do much different things inside the Human body than they do inside a block of Jello. I had a 32 ACP chambered Davis derringer and half of all FMJ ammo would impact the target sideways and I have read other accounts of the 32 Auto tumbling inside the human body. Many people make a big deal about the importance of "One-shot-stop" capability but that's looking at things in terms of THEORY, not tactics, which is why with any gun, you need to keep firing until either the gun is empty OR the threat is neutralized.

I consider the 32 auto equal to the 380 but far superior to the 25 ACP yet most people put the 32 in the same category as the 25. But like the 22 Long rifle, (when fired out of a RIFLE) the 32 auto has lethality way out of proportion to it's size and from what paper ballistics would indicate.
All true. It is also true to say that thousands of people, and deer have been killed with a 22LR. However, that obviously doesn't make it the best caliber for either purpose.

I'm not hung up on the idea of a "on shot stop" either. If I were I'd carry a 44 mag all the time. But I am pretty convinced of the idea that in terms of rounds to stop a threat, less is more. By that I mean that fewer shots to get the job done is better than more shots. If for no other reason than to reduce the number of rounds that have potential to go where you don't want them to and/or to conserve ammo in case you need to address more than one threat.

It is debatable whether the 32acp with 71gr FMJ's or JHPs is as effective as the 380 with 95gr FMJs or JHPs. What is not debatable is that the 32acp SD ammo tops out at about 260 ft-lbs ME, whereas the 380 tops out at about 425 ft-lbs ME.

A perfect LUCKY shot with a 32ACP that doesn't hit a rib or bone will no doubt penetrate enough to do some serious damage - like in Mr. Warhol's case. But is it going to do that reliably with only 260 ft-lbs ME and only 71gr of mass? I don't believe it will. The same is true of the 380 with just 425 ft-lbs and 95gr of mass. But physics don't lie, and 60% more energy combined with 25% more mass certainly increase the odds, and thereby decrease the number of rounds likely required to do the same job by a significant amount as well.

That is why I have always considered the 380 as my minimum SD caliber. Others are comfortable with less, and that's OK - we each need to be comfortable with what we carry and most importantly be GOOD at using it. Shot placement is key and a hit with a 22 is way more effective than a miss with a 44...
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Moscow » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:03 am

hatchdog wrote:After several years of carrying a Kahr P380 I switched back to a revolver, mostly due to my love of wheel guns but also the comfort that no amount of pocket lint or other debris is going to make it unreliable. I carry a Ruger LCR with Speer 130 short barrel HP's and two Bianchi Speed Strips loaded with five rounds each. I use a pocket holster that covers the entire cylinder and trigger and as it is hammerless there really isn't anyplace for much lint to enter the works.
What brand and model holster do you use with the LCR?

It is my carry gun of choice as well, however I put 6 rounds in my speedstrips just cuz.

I use this leather holster daily. Don't know the brand. Got it on Ebay for $10

Works slick.

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Badger » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:35 am

thumpar wrote:I had a TCP and now have the LCP custom. The LCP has a better trigger. They are pretty close otherwise.
When shopping for wife guns, mine liked the prettier colors available on the Taurus TCP, however she opted for the Ruger LCP due to the lighter pull required to rack the slide. As a compromise there is now a pink Hogue grip on the LCP.

I agree with others, the LCP is a bugger, but she shoots hers like Annie Oakley. I'm told she makes every shot count because it is not that pleasant to shoot more than a couple mags.

I imagine the receiving end of those .380s would be considerably less pleasant.

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by Badger » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:48 am

BC38 wrote:
It is debatable whether the 32acp with 71gr FMJ's or JHPs is as effective as the 380 with 95gr FMJs or JHPs. What is not debatable is that the 32acp SD ammo tops out at about 260 ft-lbs ME, whereas the 380 tops out at about 425 ft-lbs ME.

. . . But is it going to do that reliably with only 260 ft-lbs ME and only 71gr of mass? I don't believe it will. The same is true of the 380 with just 425 ft-lbs and 95gr of mass. But physics don't lie, and 60% more energy combined with 25% more mass certainly increase the odds, and thereby decrease the number of rounds likely required to do the same job by a significant amount as well.

That is why I have always considered the 380 as my minimum SD caliber. Others are comfortable with less, and that's OK - we each need to be comfortable with what we carry and most importantly be GOOD at using it. Shot placement is key and a hit with a 22 is way more effective than a miss with a 44...
I don't vehemently disagree with your general rationale, however those muzzle energy numbers seem to be a bit exaggerated. It looks like you have used the muzzle energy data from a long rifle barrel as opposed to what happens at the end of a snubby-sized pistol barrel.

Check out this info for some more realistic numbers.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megr ... o2010.html

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Re: Pocket guns

Post by BC38 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:07 am

Badger wrote:
BC38 wrote:
It is debatable whether the 32acp with 71gr FMJ's or JHPs is as effective as the 380 with 95gr FMJs or JHPs. What is not debatable is that the 32acp SD ammo tops out at about 260 ft-lbs ME, whereas the 380 tops out at about 425 ft-lbs ME.

. . . But is it going to do that reliably with only 260 ft-lbs ME and only 71gr of mass? I don't believe it will. The same is true of the 380 with just 425 ft-lbs and 95gr of mass. But physics don't lie, and 60% more energy combined with 25% more mass certainly increase the odds, and thereby decrease the number of rounds likely required to do the same job by a significant amount as well.

That is why I have always considered the 380 as my minimum SD caliber. Others are comfortable with less, and that's OK - we each need to be comfortable with what we carry and most importantly be GOOD at using it. Shot placement is key and a hit with a 22 is way more effective than a miss with a 44...
I don't vehemently disagree with your general rationale, however those muzzle energy numbers seem to be a bit exaggerated. It looks like you have used the muzzle energy data from a long rifle barrel as opposed to what happens at the end of a snubby-sized pistol barrel.

Check out this info for some more realistic numbers.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megr ... o2010.html
:lol: :lol: LOL That is EXACTLY where I got the data from :lol: :lol:

But you are correct, my bad. I just glanced at the max numbers - which is best case scenario.
Out of the 2" barrels of these little pocket guns the disparity is even worse - 100 ft lbs for the 71gr 32ACP vs 220 for the 95gr 380.

So I stand corrected: The ME isn't 60% greater - it is 110% greater, with 25% more mass.
Thanks for the correction - that illustrates my point even better. :)
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by edzz » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:35 pm

BC38 wrote:
Badger wrote:
BC38 wrote:
It is debatable whether the 32acp with 71gr FMJ's or JHPs is as effective as the 380 with 95gr FMJs or JHPs. What is not debatable is that the 32acp SD ammo tops out at about 260 ft-lbs ME, whereas the 380 tops out at about 425 ft-lbs ME.

. . . But is it going to do that reliably with only 260 ft-lbs ME and only 71gr of mass? I don't believe it will. The same is true of the 380 with just 425 ft-lbs and 95gr of mass. But physics don't lie, and 60% more energy combined with 25% more mass certainly increase the odds, and thereby decrease the number of rounds likely required to do the same job by a significant amount as well.

That is why I have always considered the 380 as my minimum SD caliber. Others are comfortable with less, and that's OK - we each need to be comfortable with what we carry and most importantly be GOOD at using it. Shot placement is key and a hit with a 22 is way more effective than a miss with a 44...
I don't vehemently disagree with your general rationale, however those muzzle energy numbers seem to be a bit exaggerated. It looks like you have used the muzzle energy data from a long rifle barrel as opposed to what happens at the end of a snubby-sized pistol barrel.

Check out this info for some more realistic numbers.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megr ... o2010.html
:lol: :lol: LOL That is EXACTLY where I got the data from :lol: :lol:

But you are correct, my bad. I just glanced at the max numbers - which is best case scenario.
Out of the 2" barrels of these little pocket guns the disparity is even worse - 100 ft lbs for the 71gr 32ACP vs 220 for the 95gr 380.

So I stand corrected: The ME isn't 60% greater - it is 110% greater, with 25% more mass.
Thanks for the correction - that illustrates my point even better. :)
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Re: Pocket guns

Post by BC38 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:29 pm

edzz wrote:
BC38 wrote:
Badger wrote:
BC38 wrote:
It is debatable whether the 32acp with 71gr FMJ's or JHPs is as effective as the 380 with 95gr FMJs or JHPs. What is not debatable is that the 32acp SD ammo tops out at about 260 ft-lbs ME, whereas the 380 tops out at about 425 ft-lbs ME.

. . . But is it going to do that reliably with only 260 ft-lbs ME and only 71gr of mass? I don't believe it will. The same is true of the 380 with just 425 ft-lbs and 95gr of mass. But physics don't lie, and 60% more energy combined with 25% more mass certainly increase the odds, and thereby decrease the number of rounds likely required to do the same job by a significant amount as well.

That is why I have always considered the 380 as my minimum SD caliber. Others are comfortable with less, and that's OK - we each need to be comfortable with what we carry and most importantly be GOOD at using it. Shot placement is key and a hit with a 22 is way more effective than a miss with a 44...
I don't vehemently disagree with your general rationale, however those muzzle energy numbers seem to be a bit exaggerated. It looks like you have used the muzzle energy data from a long rifle barrel as opposed to what happens at the end of a snubby-sized pistol barrel.

Check out this info for some more realistic numbers.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megr ... o2010.html
:lol: :lol: LOL That is EXACTLY where I got the data from :lol: :lol:

But you are correct, my bad. I just glanced at the max numbers - which is best case scenario.
Out of the 2" barrels of these little pocket guns the disparity is even worse - 100 ft lbs for the 71gr 32ACP vs 220 for the 95gr 380.

So I stand corrected: The ME isn't 60% greater - it is 110% greater, with 25% more mass.
Thanks for the correction - that illustrates my point even better. :)
Engineers :roll:
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Seeing as how we're the ones who design, test, and build just about every product you use, see, and touch every day, the world pretty much has to put up with us :D
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I've tried to see things from the liberal point of view - but I'm just not flexible enough to get my head up my ...

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