L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

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L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by ron » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:08 am

Most American boys and the occasional girl grew up playing "Guns" or "Cowboys" or "Cops and Robbers" or "War" and we learned from watching television that the proper way to hold any gun was to always have your finger on the trigger at all times. (and also to always chect to see if you remembered to load your gun and then "snap" the cylinder of a DA revolver shut for dramatic effect)

A bad habit learned at a young age is hard to break. The subsequent analysis seems to rely on the "logic" that since they switched from the Beretta 92 to the M&P, that the DA/SA design is a more "forgiving" design for untrained recruits.

I would argue that the Glock, or an M&P with thumb safety delete would be MORE inherently safe because recruits and veterans alike would realize that you couldn't RELY on the safety to prevent AD's, but instead had to use your fully functioning BRAIN which is ultimately the best safety of all. Additionally The military as opposed to moost domestic pol9ice agency teaches that the only way to carry a hanbdgun is nhammer doen on an empty chamber. My 30 yr old Nephew is an Iraq vet and this is the only way he will carry any gun except for a DA revolver.


M&Ps blamed for Accidental Discharges Operator error most likely cause


From: The Firearms Blog. All editorial comments are from Miles Vining of TFB.

An article posted by the Los Angeles Times has come out with a review of the increase in accidental discharges by Los Angels County Sheriff deputies, saying it doubled since 2012 when the agency switched over from Beretta 92Fs to the Smith & Wesson M&P. The article has alot of typical firearms terminology errors, such as calling an accidental discharge a “misfire”. Nonetheless, the department is officially saying that they are blaming the new pistols and the lack of training involved for the trend in negligent discharges.

In 2012, there were 12 accidental discharges, none involving the M&P. In 2013, there were 18, eight of which were M&Ps. Of the 30 incidents in 2014, 22 involved M&Ps.

Assistant Sheriff Todd Rogers attributed the increase to deputies still adjusting to the lack of a safety on the new gun. (incorrect, the M&P as issued DOES have a safety)

“The vast majority were people trained on the Beretta,” Rogers said. “There is a correlation, no doubt about it.””

I’ve got some problems with this on a variety of different levels. One of them is that it seems that many of the guys seem to have had their fingers on the triggers when they shouldn’t have, and that makes me wonder how many of these guys constantly had their fingers on the triggers with Beretta, simply because the weapon was on “safe”? One of the quotes from the article was one of the instructors they had with “On target, on trigger”. Excuse me? I’ve been taught and do teach, the finger goes on the trigger when “Ready to Fire”, which only occurs when the shooter is completely ready to let a round go regardless of the target and the sighting process.

In addition I see this ever trending theme of the handguns allow the recruits and officers to score better on their marksmanship qualifications. I see the same problem with the Marine Corps and issuing out RCOs at the recruit depot because it simply raises the shooting scores. I’m sorry, are we in the business of teaching the proper fundamentals of marksmanship or do we just want to hand out expert badges at the cyclic rate? The article keeps mentioning police departments trying to have heavy trigger jobs and safeties in an attempt to prevent negligent discharges. Are these changes not taking into account that the human factor is the most important factor in any of this?

Another thing I’d like to point out is that Law Enforcement and the military are often put at fault for not having the best firearms, the best firearms procedures, etc. Although competency with firearms is certainly apart of the job, it absolutely isn’t the whole job. Just something to keep in mind with this kind of thing. And finally, a pet peeve of mine, no unintended discharge is accidental, it’s negligence for not clearing a firearm or not handling it properly. Finger off the trigger until ready to fire…

In addition, someone in the comments section pointed out that of course M&Ps are offered with thumb safeties. If the transition from manual safety Berettas to M&Ps with no manual safety was so rocky, and all their training/drills revolved around a manual safety on the handgun, what could have gone so wrong with manual safeties on the newer polymer M&Ps? The less weight is still there and you keep all the training that revolved around a manual safety. Perhaps the best quote of the article was this one-

“If you still have your finger on the trigger when you put it in your holster, you’ll end up with a stripe on your leg and/or a hole in your foot”

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015 ... Z8Ggl.dpuf
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by Ace. » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:32 pm

Yeah I don't know, I have 4 M&P's only one has a thumb safety (1st gen Shield) not once have I had an ND or even close.
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by dillonivik » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:31 pm

ron wrote:...The military as opposed to most domestic police agency teaches that the only way to carry a handgun is hammer down on an empty chamber.
In the AF I carried my M9 chamber loaded hammer down safety off, and that was how I was trained to do it. The Army just does it stupid style, empty chamber and safety on, so when you load the pistol the hammer drops, it always blew me away how the Army carried...
All that said, it always surprises me the amount of negligent discharges that are blamed on the pistol. Its 99.9% of the time the idiot with his finger on the trigger...

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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by edzz » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:17 pm

Ed

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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by ron » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:25 am

edzz wrote:And sometimes it is the gun... :shock:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... ischarges/

And 99.99 per cent of the time it actually IS mechanical failure.... In the form of a loose nut behind the trigger. :D
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by edzz » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:52 pm

ron wrote:
edzz wrote:And sometimes it is the gun... :shock:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... ischarges/

And 99.99 per cent of the time it actually IS mechanical failure.... In the form of a loose nut behind the trigger. :D

So true, Remington has been playing that tune for years. 721, 722, 700... or all the great striker fired pocket pistols of yesteryear.
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by scrappy » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:45 pm

This is entirely a product brought about by two factors , both of which are human related.
First is the apparent lack of proper weapons training. Any reasonably competent person can be trained to properly manipulate any type of handgun, as long as the training is appropriate for the task at hand.

Second is the fact that, especially in larger departments, there is a definite trend whereby departments choose to hire people who are not avid shooting enthusiasts. The thought is that by hiring non-shooters they are perhaps reducing the likelihood that an officer will use his weapon. The problem is that this is exactly the opposite of what actually happens. Non shooters are much harder to teach the fundamentals to than are avid shooters, they are more likely to resort to use of their weapons. Nonshooters are also less apt to understand the need for absolute control of both ones muzzle and trigger.
I make much of this claim based on having worked in LE and seen firsthand the differences in gun handling between avid shooters and guys for whom their weapon was just a tool on their belt, and from first and second hand experience regarding the premier firearms schools, such as Front Sight.

These schools cater exclusively to shooting enthusiasts. These people very often choose guns with s/a triggers, such as the great 1911. ND's are almost unheard of at these schools. NYPD STILL has ND's despite the refitting of their issue Glocks with 22lb triggers. This heavy trigger only serves to INCREASE the likelihood of both AD's and misses, both of which result in a bullet going where it wasn't intended.

Limit hiring to candidates who are avid shooters, train and equip them with weapons with a good trigger and you will see a dramatic drop is these issues.
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by Spectre_USA » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:11 am

22 pounds?

Holy schnikies, how in hell do they hit anything, ever?

Only in new york...
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by scrappy » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:09 am

Spectre_USA wrote:22 pounds?

Holy schnikies, how in hell do they hit anything, ever?

Only in new york...
Well, NYPD claims the greatest likely hood of a 1st round hit of any larger department. They claim their officers have a 20% likely hood of hitting their target on the first shot..... Um, I am not certain that I would brag about the fact that you just said that 80% of your officers initial shots are going God only knows where.
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by davidrayt » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:54 am

"accidental discharges"? I don't think so. Just the LEOs putting the blame on something else besides themselves. When I have to shoot somebody it will definitely be an "accidental discharge".
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by ron » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:34 pm

Back when most PD's used DA revolvers They had far less AD's and better hit potential per rounds fired. The average trigger pull weight on a DA revolver is 8 to 10 pounds but it takes practice to manage firing DA and being accurate with it. The way I learned to0 master the DA revolver was with a 9 shot Taurus 22 LR. with 9 continuous shots you build up a rhythm moreeasilly. I think a seven shot medium frame 357 mag revolvere would still make an excellent Duty gun but there isn't anything wrong with a 13 shot Glock 23 in 40 S&W or 357 Sig either, but no need for a 22 pound trigger as a means ro compensate for lack or training.

Another interesting thing is back when the LAPD used revolvers their armorers made all their guns DA only because too many gun "Went Off" accidentally when cocked and pointed at a suspect or at the officer's foot so LAPD patrolmen had to learn how to shoot double action and qualify annually doing so. When I lived in Los Angeles I knew some LAPD cops and even was able to train at one of the police ranges taking instruction from some off-duty detectives who were all survivors of street shootings who constantly trained and took it very seriously.

The point being that not all cops are a bunch of dipshits. When you get to know some of them personally and meet their wives and friends and families, as a whole they are an above average group of people from what I've seen and I've met the other kind, too, that were arseholes but they are the ones who are the exceptions and not the rule.
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by UpInIdaho » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:56 pm

scrappy wrote:
Spectre_USA wrote:22 pounds?

Holy schnikies, how in hell do they hit anything, ever?

Only in new york...
Well, NYPD claims the greatest likely hood of a 1st round hit of any larger department.
Where did you get that from?

Unless something's changed, NYPD historically had one of the worst hit ratios among large departments.

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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by UpInIdaho » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:11 pm

Ace. wrote:Yeah I don't know, I have 4 M&P's only one has a thumb safety (1st gen Shield) not once have I had an ND or even close.
And that's the difference. You are obviously a gun person, with an interest in them. The majority of LE today are not avid shooters. Most, especially in places like CA, have little to zero previous experience with firearms before entering the job. The gun they are issued will often be the first and only gun they own. (Quite different from when I started in the 1970's). Combine that lack of experience/interest, with only moderate training, carrying loaded guns for 10+ hour shifts, holstering and unholstering, sometimes under stress, and that switch to a completely different trigger system is going to result in a few brain farts. And yes, 30 out of over 10,000 armed deputies in LA, regular and reserve, is a few. Too many no doubt, but not a number I'm shocked by, given all of the circumstances.

If Spokane County Sheriff's had 1-2 negligent discharges in one year, would this be a news worthy subject? Because that would be about the same average. I would be surprised if they don't have one or two a year, and the average Spokane deputy is probably more firearms savvy then the average Los Angeles deputy.

Having been shooting for more than 40 years, carrying a gun my entire adult life, competing, and teaching for LE and the public, I've been present for a number of negligent discharges, more with the general public than in LE. I think many, if not most, even avid shooters have had one in their life, (if they were being honest). They just don't usually have them written up and documented if no damage is done, and they don't lose their job or any pay when it happens.

Clearly we all know this isn't a gun problem, but negligence. LE are recruited from the public pool, and X-percent will screw up, despite training, just like in every job.



.

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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by scrappy » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:03 pm

UpInIdaho, that was pretty well said. Yeah, I had a ND once. Back in my teens I put a 22LR projectile from a S/A revolver I had into my bedroom wall. Oops. Lesson learned that day! There were about a half dozen basic safety violations on my part in that one. Thankfuly no one was injured and no real damage. Never came close to doing that again in the 36 years since then. Funny how one incident can be such a forceful learning tool.
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by UpInIdaho » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:26 pm

scrappy wrote:UpInIdaho, that was pretty well said. Yeah, I had a ND once. Back in my teens I put a 22LR projectile from a S/A revolver I had into my bedroom wall. Oops. Lesson learned that day! There were about a half dozen basic safety violations on my part in that one. Thankfuly no one was injured and no real damage. Never came close to doing that again in the 36 years since then. Funny how one incident can be such a forceful learning tool.
Yeah, thankfully I was also fortunate to have a learning experience, rather that a tragedy, since I at least didn't violate rule 1. And you're right about always remembering that moment, even decades later.

I've never hurt myself with a chainsaw, but people who use them for a living do fairly often. We're all human, and familiarity can breed contempt if we let it.

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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by Ace. » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:15 am

UpInIdaho wrote:
Ace. wrote:Yeah I don't know, I have 4 M&P's only one has a thumb safety (1st gen Shield) not once have I had an ND or even close.
And that's the difference. You are obviously a gun person, with an interest in them. The majority of LE today are not avid shooters. Most, especially in places like CA, have little to zero previous experience with firearms before entering the job. The gun they are issued will often be the first and only gun they own. (Quite different from when I started in the 1970's). Combine that lack of experience/interest, with only moderate training, carrying loaded guns for 10+ hour shifts, holstering and unholstering, sometimes under stress, and that switch to a completely different trigger system is going to result in a few brain farts. And yes, 30 out of over 10,000 armed deputies in LA, regular and reserve, is a few. Too many no doubt, but not a number I'm shocked by, given all of the circumstances.

If Spokane County Sheriff's had 1-2 negligent discharges in one year, would this be a news worthy subject? Because that would be about the same average. I would be surprised if they don't have one or two a year, and the average Spokane deputy is probably more firearms savvy then the average Los Angeles deputy.

Having been shooting for more than 40 years, carrying a gun my entire adult life, competing, and teaching for LE and the public, I've been present for a number of negligent discharges, more with the general public than in LE. I think many, if not most, even avid shooters have had one in their life, (if they were being honest). They just don't usually have them written up and documented if no damage is done, and they don't lose their job or any pay when it happens.

Clearly we all know this isn't a gun problem, but negligence. LE are recruited from the public pool, and X-percent will screw up, despite training, just like in every job.



.
Good point, and I have had an ND, 8mm Mauser with the 3 position safety, was using it hunting when I was 14 or 15 couldn't remember which position was safe, well I found out which was fire :oops:
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Re: L.A. Sherriff's Dept. has 30 AD's in 1 yr w/ S&W M&P

Post by UpInIdaho » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:35 pm

Ace. wrote:
UpInIdaho wrote:Good point, and I have had an ND, 8mm Mauser with the 3 position safety, was using it hunting when I was 14 or 15 couldn't remember which position was safe, well I found out which was fire :oops:
And there you go. 3 guys, avid shooters, with keen interests in firearms, and we all admit to an oops.

Take uninterested, moderately trained, non previous shooters, with lots of other things on their minds, give them a new trigger, and X percent are bound to have a similar oops.

Like I said, 30 out of ten thousand is still too many. But a big news story? No....

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