Lightweight DAO snub 38 or 357

[RRA629]

Looking at 340PD, 642, LCR, etc.

For carry and home. Opinions? Obviously a huge price swing on these...

[KRD]

I don't have one, but my brother has the Smith and Wesson Hammerless five shot stainless 357. I call it the Ladysmith 357.

He bought it for his wife and she does not like guns, so he kept it as his carry. It is a great gun and he loves it. I would get a 357 unless the 38 was
significantly cheaper.

I see no advantage to the 38 when you can get a 357 for about the same money. You can always shoot 38, 38+P, or 357 in the 357.

[Ace.]

I've got the 642, I carry it all summer, fits in my front pocket, barely notice its there, did some research between the .357 mag and .38+p, from what i read, in these tiny barrels there is no advantage to .357 Mag, however there is alot bigger bang, and flash. Just my opinion though.

[bladebum]

S & W 442 .38 spl (+P) with C/T overmold laser grip carried in my front pocket in a soft side pocket holster with clip. Been carrying this one a lot lately.

[edzz]

I have had many "air weight" Smith & Wesson 38 specials over the years, my current favorite is a model "38" in my opinion it has all the benefits of the DAO's plus can be fired single action. As far as .357 in an air weight I would jump on one IF the price were the same as a .38, I just would never load it with .357 ammo.

[RRA629]

I had the air weight hammered version. Liked it but didn't care for the hammer. Traded it off long ago. If I still had it I'd have the hammer bobbed.

Like the 340pd hate the price. Love my 329pd. 340 probably has even nastier recoil!

Had a 640 long ago. Too heavy for 5 rounds. IMO

[ron]

I have had many "air weight" Smith & Wesson 38 specials over the years, my current favorite is a model "38" in my opinion it has all the benefits of the DAO's plus can be fired single action. As far as .357 in an air weight I would jump on one IF the price were the same as a .38, I just would never load it with .357 ammo.

Edzz. you aren't making sense. usually you are knowledgeable and have good information. Why would you want an airweight in 357 if you were never going to fire 357 ammo in it? wouldn't it make more sense just to get one in 38 special and never fire .357 ammo in it?

You haven't eaten and moldy bread lately have you? sometimes bread mold can be Hallucinogenic.

By the way I have an old model 38 Humpback Bodyguard which is the airweight version of the model 49 Bodyguard. It hurts like hell just to fire 158 round-noses in it. I keep it loaded with 148 grain wadcutters. Far better controllability.

The ultra light guns in magnum calibers may sound good on paper but in real life everything comes at price. And too much power in too light a gun you might be able to deal with under controlled circumstances but when you're under pressure you may flinch badly in anticipation of the recoil for the fir4st shot and then the recoil may effect your aim on follow-up shots when you aren't able to concentrate on anything but the threat and adrenaline has taken over.

Better to carry a little more weight and be able to shoot the gun well and practice more with it than to have the lightest gun possible that's harder to shoot and no fun to practice with. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

[BC38]

I have had many "air weight" Smith & Wesson 38 specials over the years, my current favorite is a model "38" in my opinion it has all the benefits of the DAO's plus can be fired single action. As far as .357 in an air weight I would jump on one IF the price were the same as a .38, I just would never load it with .357 ammo.

Edzz. you aren't making sense. usually you are knowledgeable and have good information. Why would you want an airweight in 357 if you were never going to fire 357 ammo in it? wouldn't it make more sense just to get one in 38 special and never fire .357 ammo in it?

His thinking makes sense if you look at it the right way.
There's nothing wrong with having the option of shooting 357 - even if you don't ever plan on doing so. This is especially true if you're a reloader - because you can load .357 brass to 38 special specs.
Having the flexibility makes good sense.

[ron]

I have had many "air weight" Smith & Wesson 38 specials over the years, my current favorite is a model "38" in my opinion it has all the benefits of the DAO's plus can be fired single action. As far as .357 in an air weight I would jump on one IF the price were the same as a .38, I just would never load it with .357 ammo.

Edzz. you aren't making sense. usually you are knowledgeable and have good information. Why would you want an airweight in 357 if you were never going to fire 357 ammo in it? wouldn't it make more sense just to get one in 38 special and never fire .357 ammo in it?

His thinking makes sense if you look at it the right way.
There's nothing wrong with having the option of shooting 357 - even if you don't ever plan on doing so. This is especially true if you're a reloader - because you can load .357 brass to 38 special specs.
Having the flexibility makes good sense.

I disagree. Flexibility is generally a good thing but not in this case and here's why" There here are the drawbacks and there are trade-offs: The laws of physics can not be suspended or revoked and are not on the side of being able to shoot full 357 loads in gun that's too light. Because there are limits to everything except the imagination and there is such a thing as the law of diminishing returns.

It's like saying that it's impossible to overdo a good thing because there are no limits. If the most powerful gun that's the lightest weight and smallest size possible is a good thing and you can't over do a good thing, then there would be nothing wrong with a 458 Winchester magnum caliber derringer. That's an extreme example but it illustrates the fact that the are limits to a good thing and that you really can over-do a good thing.

Anther example is if long barreled rifles are a good thing because they give you extra velocity then why not have a dedicated long range target rifle in 22 Long Rifle that had a 30 inch barrel? Wouldn't it be able to shoot as flat as a 22 Winchester magnum at 100 yards? After all there are rifles for shooting at 1000 yards that have 27, 28 and 30 inch barrels.

But the law of diminishing returns comes into play here. The 22 LR gains a lot of velocity once you go from a 4 or 6 inch pistol barrel to and 16 or 18 inch rifle barrel . Then out to about 22 inches you gain even more. But at about 26 inches you reach the point of diminishing returns and no more velocity is gained AND friction causes the projectile to slow down and velocity is lost. Consequently, a 30 inch barrel would produce less velocity than a 22 inch barrel.

Diminishing returns with power to weight probably occurs somewhere before the 5,336 ft·lbs of energy of a 458 magnum in a 16 ounce derringer and American derringer company actually makes such a thing in 45-70 which weighs 16.5 pounds. But just think, you could get one of these guns and have it re-chambered to 458 but only shoot downloaded 450 marlin out of it, but you'd have the OPTION of shooting 458 Win Mag out of it! And that does not make sense to me since you could just leave it as a 45-70 and fire some of those Garret loads out of it or hand load it to 458 ballistics. but again, someone would have to be eating hallucinogenic bread mold to want to do that.

http://www.genitron.com/Handgun/America ... /Variant-2

The other drawback to having a gun with a 357 chamber and shooting nothing but 38's in it, you have to be very diligent with cleaning your gun or else you get a buildup of carbon at the end of the cylinder to the point where you will no longer have that wonderful OPTION of chambering a 357 round. I've actuality seen this in some 357 revolvers and I have an old 28 Highway patrolman that when I got it, had crud in the cylinder when I bough it, and while it would chamber a 38 round, I was determined to clean it down to the bare metal and that took days to accomplish.

I don't think lightweight 5 shot snubs in 357 mag are a good Idea in the least. I reload, and if someone GAVE me once of those guns I'd reload 357 cases down to about 900 fps with wadcutters and call it good. But you could do the same exact thing if it were a 38 rated for plus P+ There was a gunwriter named Skeeter Skelton once who often told the story of in his college days when he had no money but had a big N-frame smith 357 and access to tons of 38 special cases he cast his own bullets and created a load with 170 grain semi-wadcutters that duplicated exactly 357 mag ballistics.

As for me, I may be old but ain't no pussy and I can endure recoil and I can hold on to the gun and not have it fly out of my hand, but when I got my model 38 airweight Humpback bodyguard the load I wanted to carry in it was the old "FBI load" consisting of a swaged lead plus +P 158 gain hollowpoint and I ordered a box online for $40 bucks.

Luckily I sh*t the gun with some 158 grain Blazer round noses, just your standard 38 special M&P load for over 100 years. and it HURT to shoot it! Of course the gun had the original skinny j-frame grips on it and It came with some rubber grips, but I considered those an abomination on a classic gun so I got a "Period Correct" Tyler t-grip adaptor for it and that mad it easier to shot the blazers but they still HURT bad enough that I was too chicken sh*t to even try the heavy bullet FBI Plus P loads so I sold then to a friend to shoot in his model 66.

And what was bad about this gun was that where it hit me was right on the big thumb knuckle where the thumb connects to the hand, and it would be sore for a week. I COULD have switched to the rubber grips but that's just another trade-off. What makes the gun so easy to carry now in any pocket, is those skinny grips. The rubber grips defeat the whole purpose of a lightweight compact semi-Hammerless DA gun made for pocket carry. If I were to carry it in a holster strong side hip then I might as well carry something like a Smith and Wesson shield that handles plus P+ ammo better and holds more rounds.

As far as the original question. Of the choices that you mention I really like the Ruger LCR in 38 Plus P+ It has almost as nice of a DA trigger as my smith model 38 humpback airweight Bodyguard and is not a whole lot heavier and has great ergonomics and is suitable with pocket carry. The polymer frame also soaks up a certain amount of recoil.

[BC38]

I appreciate what you're saying about the point of diminishing returns Ron, but I still say that having the OPTION to shoot 357s is not in and of itself a bad thing. But that's because I reload, and (as you said) the 357 cases can be loaded to 38 specs - which eliminates the crud problems with shooting a lot of "real" 38s in a 357.

I will agree that if you DON'T reload your own and will only shoot 38s then you probably are better off getting a gun chambered in 38 rather than 357. FWIW, personally I wouldn't buy an alloy framed airweight in either caliber. I've seen too many cases where people have had issues with cracked frames & such.

I'm not interested in polymer framed revolvers either. I like guns made of steel. A few more ounces to carry is a worthwhile tradeoff for its ability to dampen muzzle flip and recoil making it possible to get back on target quicker.

[edzz]

I have had many "air weight" Smith & Wesson 38 specials over the years, my current favorite is a model "38" in my opinion it has all the benefits of the DAO's plus can be fired single action. As far as .357 in an air weight I would jump on one IF the price were the same as a .38, I just would never load it with .357 ammo.

Ron, IF I had the choice between two Smith & Wesson airweight's that were identical with the exception of one being chambered in .38 vs one chambered in .357 mag AND the same price for either gun I would take the .357 for the simple reason that if I decided to sell it in the future most people would pay more for the .357.

As far as my preferred social load for airweight S&W's I like the 125 grain Federal Nyclads. For most practice I use a less powerful reload using 125 grain cast round nose.

[ron]

I have had many "air weight" Smith & Wesson 38 specials over the years, my current favorite is a model "38" in my opinion it has all the benefits of the DAO's plus can be fired single action. As far as .357 in an air weight I would jump on one IF the price were the same as a .38, I just would never load it with .357 ammo.

Ron, IF I had the choice between two Smith & Wesson airweight's that were identical with the exception of one being chambered in .38 vs one chambered in .357 mag AND the same price for either gun I would take the .357 for the simple reason that if I decided to sell it in the future most people would pay more for the .357.

As far as my preferred social load for airweight S&W's I like the 125 grain Federal Nyclads. For most practice I use a less powerful reload using 125 grain cast round nose.

Now I see your reasoning and it makes sense even though a gun that light in 357 doesn't make any sense in the real world, but there are a lot of people out there who've never fired one who think that the 357 option makes sense and for that reason resale value would indeed be higher but in practical terms if you shot a lot of 38 special ammo in a gun like that you'd have to like cleaning guns on a regular basis and the vast majority of gun owners actually hate to clean their guns.

The nyclads are a good load but that ammo was hard to find even before the shortage. I remember when that ammo fist came out and I tried it and liked it but then I never saw it again and figure it had been discontinued. I also got too try the first Hydra-shock 38 special wadcutters.

Jim Cirrillo of the NY{D who survived several street shoot-outs swore by wadcutter ammo though he also like the FBI plus P load.

If you have any of that nyclad ammo that you want to sell, PM me even if it's just a dozen rounds.

[Doug Helton]

I have a raft of snubbies myself both 38 and 32 mag , I like all of them more or less the same depending on what I will be wearing . If I am carrying IWB I love my detective special , in front pocket I like a air weight hammer-less smith and wesson , in side pocket of cargo shorts most work . I dont spend a lot of time worrying about loads as like Ron says it has to be controllable for best results and at 5 feet most will be suitable , if you cannot find nyclads the buffalo bore 125 grain HP std velocity would seem and able substitute . It is very informative to read the compilation the NRA did on the shootings they report in armed citizen section every month , the results were not what I would have expected .

[ron]

I have a raft of snubbies myself both 38 and 32 mag , I like all of them more or less the same depending on what I will be wearing . If I am carrying IWB I love my detective special , in front pocket I like a air weight hammer-less smith and wesson , in side pocket of cargo shorts most work . I dont spend a lot of time worrying about loads as like Ron says it has to be controllable for best results and at 5 feet most will be suitable , if you cannot find nyclads the buffalo bore 125 grain HP std velocity would seem and able substitute . It is very informative to read the compilation the NRA did on the shootings they report in armed citizen section every month , the results were not what I would have expected .

Hollowpoint expansion is iffy at short barrel 38 special velocities but a wadcutter actually does more damage at similar velocities and 148 grains is better than 125. Buffalo Bore makes a warmish wadcutter load that actually sounds pretty good, they call in an "anti-personnel" load. The FBI loads were even better because they weight 158 grains and they expanded because they were plus P+ but those loads are best used in an all steel gun like your detective special. The nyclads were dead soft lead and were around for a number of years and were reported to have worked pretty well on feral humanoid recidivist predators.

here's from the BB website:

38 Special ANTI-PERSONNEL Std. Pressure Wadcutter

Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.

1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL target wadcutter ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.


Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches ) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!

•a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
•b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
•c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
•d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

Ballistics Information:

•Muzzle Velocity: 850 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 241 ft. lbs.
•This ammunition is safe for use in alloy frame and other non +P revolvers

[Doug Helton]

nearly all of my shooting of snubbies has been at paper and I have relied on the published claims of the ammo manufactures and the anecdotal reflections of people like Cirillo whom have had greater experience . like others I have carried the old slow wadcutter ammo as it is controllable and accurate . no doubt we have better ammo avail today , retail, than we ever had

[Rigger28]

S&W 637-2 HANDS DOWN!!!!!!! Very easy to conceal and packs a punch in .38 +p. I carry 125 grain Golden Sabres.

[RRA629]

Picked up a 642 from one of my favorite shops - Keith and the guys NW Pawn are great.

Now I need my holster back from bladebum.

[bladebum]

Picked up a 642 from one of my favorite shops - Keith and the guys NW Pawn are great.

Now I need my holster back from bladebum.

PM me... I can fix you up.

[ron]

Picked up a 642 from one of my favorite shops - Keith and the guys NW Pawn are great.

Now I need my holster back from bladebum.

Good choice and Keith and the crew at NW pawn are number one. and smith and Wesson revolvers have XLNT triggers right out of the box but someone like RLHas can make them "Like Butter".

Here's a vid if you want to get rid of that stupit lock. I hate those things. Why? because every single part on a gun is capable of malfunctioning and it's just one more thing to go wrong. And also, it is also prone to humn error failures like locking it and losing he key or not being able to FIND the key when you need the gun to save your arse. Or maybe just trying it once and then thinking you unlocked it when you locked it. --Just typical Fk-ups like those that we all do at some point in time.

What CAN go wrong, Will go wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVPYgohVCNM

[ron]

I just discovered that Underwood makes a hot but not Plus+ Wadcutter load. Buffalo bore make the sqme basic thing, a hardcast full wadcutter at 850 FPS.

Standard Wadcutter loads loads run about 700 fps, yet have been proved succesfull for self defense by pwoplw like Jim Cirrello of te NYPD and carrying wqadcutters in snubbie4s is something that's been done for years.

Here's what Buffalo Bore says about their wadcutter load:

Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches ) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel.

Underwood's load sells for $13.28 for 20 rounds plus 9 dollars and change for shipping. That's a lot les than the buffalo bore ammo. I've use quite a bit of Underwood ammo and the only ammo I've had problems with is their 10mm which is a tight fit in aftermarket barrels for Glocks.

These 850 fps full wadcutter loads are the perfect load IMO for airweight snubbies. More bullet weight than 125 grain plus p's and a projectile that does not depend on "iffy" expansion at 38 special velocities for effectiveness. The bullet nose is "pre-expanded" before it even leaves the barrel.