One gun option

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UpInIdaho
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Re: One gun option

Post by UpInIdaho » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:42 am

ron wrote:As much as I like the 44 Blackhawk, and as much as I think a single action revolver is as viable an option as a double action, (having seen Bob Mundon shoot a single action)
In fairness Ron, that's a little like saying the NBA is viable career choice for me, since I've seen Michael Jordan play.... :lol:

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Re: One gun option

Post by ron » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:23 pm

UpInIdaho wrote:
ron wrote:As much as I like the 44 Blackhawk, and as much as I think a single action revolver is as viable an option as a double action, (having seen Bob Mundon shoot a single action)
In fairness Ron, that's a little like saying the NBA is viable career choice for me, since I've seen Michael Jordan play.... :lol:

Funny analogy, but my point was that contrary to what most people think, a single action revolver has nothing inherently wrong with the design so that it can't be used effectively.

I remember reading a story written by Larry Kelly of Magnaport of where an angry brown bear was trying to force it's way into a cabin through the front door that he and his guide were trapped in with no way out. The bear was so big he couldn't fit but he was trying to force his way in.

Kelly emptied his S&W model 29 44 mag into the bear and the guide shot it a couple of times with a 375 H&H and when the excitemt was over he said that he realized that he hammer cocked the gun each time instead of firing it double action because that's how he always fired the gun for target shooting.

And yet, he fired those shot's REALLY fast, which goes to show that with the aid of "Adrenaline Assist" an ordinary shooter can hammer-cock and fire a revolver ALMOST as fast as Jerry Miculek firing a DA revolver or Bob Munden fanning a single action while holding back the trigger.
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Re: One gun option

Post by UpInIdaho » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:40 pm

ron wrote:
UpInIdaho wrote:
ron wrote:As much as I like the 44 Blackhawk, and as much as I think a single action revolver is as viable an option as a double action, (having seen Bob Mundon shoot a single action)
In fairness Ron, that's a little like saying the NBA is viable career choice for me, since I've seen Michael Jordan play.... :lol:

Funny analogy, but my point was that contrary to what most people think, a single action revolver has nothing inherently wrong with the design so that it can't be used effectively.

I remember reading a story written by Larry Kelly of Magnaport of where an angry brown bear was trying to force it's way into a cabin through the front door that he and his guide were trapped in with no way out. The bear was so big he couldn't fit but he was trying to force his way in.

Kelly emptied his S&W model 29 44 mag into the bear and the guide shot it a couple of times with a 375 H&H and when the excitemt was over he said that he realized that he hammer cocked the gun each time instead of firing it double action because that's how he always fired the gun for target shooting.

And yet, he fired those shot's REALLY fast, which goes to show that with the aid of "Adrenaline Assist" an ordinary shooter can hammer-cock and fire a revolver ALMOST as fast as Jerry Miculek firing a DA revolver or Bob Munden fanning a single action while holding back the trigger.
Larry Kelly was anything but an "ordinary shooter". But it is another great example of reverting to what you have done in practice under stress.

We'll have to disagree on the efficacy of an average shooter using a single action revolver for any kind of self defense. Having joined SASS way back, I know what a skilled shooter can do with one, but the average shooter is probably a lot better off with DA for a revolver.

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Re: One gun option

Post by ron » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:41 pm

I agree that a gun that you can shoot accurately, is better than a gun that you can't, but I also think that with enough training and practice, even guns that are not considered to be optimum, like a single action vs a D/A or a heavy recoiling 454 Casull vs a 45 auto, the "less than optimum" guns can work very well with training, practice, and a determined survival mindset. It's a common misconception that hardware in terms of what kinds of guns and what kinds of ammo are "best", are more important than the "software" that's programed into your brain.

Here's a story of an experienced woodsman who carried a short barreled 454 Casull Ruger Alaskan which he had obviously practiced with a great deal, who survived a close range attack by what was later determined to be a starving bear who wanted him for dinner. Some bears just attack to defend their territory and just mess you up a little bit, and many people have survived attacks like that. But this bear was determined to kill and eat the man he attacked.

From The Firearms Blog:

Greg Brush, an Alaskan fishing guide, was ambushed with no warning by a charging bear. All he had time to do was pull out his .454 Casull and fire as fast as possible, while falling backwards after tripping on a branch. The Anchorage Daily News reports:

“He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger. He’s not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

“Total luck shot,” he said.

“It doesn’t get any closer. He slid by me on his chin when I shot him,” Brush said. “I was backpedaling as fast as I could. I wasn’t even aiming. I tripped over my own feet as I pulled the trigger.”

He estimated that the animal weighed 900-plus pounds, and was 15 to 20 years old. It had grass packed in its molars and little fat on its bones.

“It was starving to death and saw an opportunity,” Brush said.”

I sometimes get asked what should be carried in bear country. I always say the same thing: “I know nothing about bears but if I was in bear country I would want a .44 Magnum by my side”. I despair when people say they would rather carry their 9mm or .40 S&W Glock because they can get off more shots! This story perfectly illustrates that you may only get off one or two shots at a charging 900 pound beast! A 9mm round is not going to do much good.

Greg was most likely carrying a Ruger Super Redhawk. The Low-Glare Stainless model has a 7.5″ barrel and is available chambered in .454 Casull or .45 Colt. It has a MSRP of $992.

UPDATE: Commenters point out that he was using the Super Redhawk Alaskan. This snub nosed .454 Casull has a 2.5″ barrel . It also has a MSRP of $922. Thanks guys for the correction.


And here's a more detailed article on the same incident from Field and Stream:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/ga ... led-alaska
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Re: One gun option

Post by UpInIdaho » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:18 pm

No doubt. But the gun in the story was a DA revolver, which is easier to manipulate under stress than a single action.

From your story:
“He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger. He’s not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

“Total luck shot,” he said.

“It doesn’t get any closer. He slid by me on his chin when I shot him,” Brush said. “I was backpedaling as fast as I could. I wasn’t even aiming. I tripped over my own feet as I pulled the trigger.”
That is the reality in many/most bear attacks. Fast moving, and no time, with the need for multiple shots. Most people can do that better in DA,

I'm not saying a SA can't serve the purpose. Heavens no. In practiced hands of course it can and has. But a lot of guys carrying Super Blackhawks for bear protection, probably haven't practiced enough with them shooting fast under stress.

I got fairly good years ago with my Eddie Janis tuned Colt SAA's, shooting .45 Cowboy loads. And that skill certainly could translate over to my Ruger SB Or BH .44's and .45's. But I'll still carry one of my DA .44's if I need a woods gun for protection.


.

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Re: One gun option

Post by ron » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:30 pm

UpInIdaho wrote:No doubt. But the gun in the story was a DA revolver, which is easier to manipulate under stress than a single action.

From your story:
“He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger. He’s not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

“Total luck shot,” he said.

“It doesn’t get any closer. He slid by me on his chin when I shot him,” Brush said. “I was backpedaling as fast as I could. I wasn’t even aiming. I tripped over my own feet as I pulled the trigger.”
That is the reality in many/most bear attacks. Fast moving, and no time, with the need for multiple shots. Most people can do that better in DA,

I'm not saying a SA can't serve the purpose. Heavens no. In practiced hands of course it can and has. But a lot of guys carrying Super Blackhawks for bear protection, probably haven't practiced enough with them shooting fast under stress.

I got fairly good years ago with my Eddie Janis tuned Colt SAA's, shooting .45 Cowboy loads. And that skill certainly could translate over to my Ruger SB Or BH .44's and .45's. But I'll still carry one of my DA .44's if I need a woods gun for protection.


.

I'm not trying to say that a single action revolver is just as good as a D/A revolver for bear defense.

All I'm saying is that what I consider to be most important is training, practice, mental preparation, and a determined mindset. I used to be pretty good with a DA revolver but lately I've practiced more with my Glocks that have had trigger jobs by The Glock Doc, and that's why my Glock 20 loaded with the buffalo bore or underwood heavy bullet hardcast loads would be my choice for a woods gun rather than a 6 1/2 inch 41 magnum Ruger Blackhawk or even a 4 inch S&W model 58 which I also have but haven't practiced with as much.

I also like the extra ammo capacity even if it might not be an advantage in EVERY situation, because it might be an advantage in some.
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Re: One gun option

Post by UpInIdaho » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:59 pm

ron wrote:
I'm not trying to say that a single action revolver is just as good as a D/A revolver for bear defense.

All I'm saying is that what I consider to be most important is training, practice, mental preparation, and a determined mindset. I used to be pretty good with a DA revolver but lately I've practiced more with my Glocks that have had trigger jobs by The Glock Doc, and that's why my Glock 20 loaded with the buffalo bore or underwood heavy bullet hardcast loads would be my choice for a woods gun rather than a 6 1/2 inch 41 magnum Ruger Blackhawk or even a 4 inch S&W model 58 which I also have but haven't practiced with as much.

I also like the extra ammo capacity even if it might not be an advantage in EVERY situation, because it might be an advantage in some.
Agreed on all points.

Skill can certainly trump equipment.

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Re: One gun option

Post by F350Crew » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:49 pm

$.02, IMHO the GLOCK is the wise choice, every time. "RON" is right on the money, nothing further need be said! I personally carry one every day! :{)
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