Old Smiths

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BC38
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Old Smiths

Post by BC38 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:44 pm

Who else has some?

I got this one a little while back, and another member expressed interest in seeing it so I'm starting a new thread about it.

It is a HE Model of 1950 44 special with a 1956 production serial number - built right before they introduced the model numbers (this one would become the Model 24). It is blued and the barrel has been cut down to 4-1/2" and had a kind of hybrid ramp/Patridge sight added. Pinned barrel, but no recessed chambers (something they only did on magnums - 357, 41, 44)

It originally came with a set of the the much sought after "Coke Bottle" target stocks, which really weren't right for the gun - they were only available for the big-bore magnums (41 mag & 44 mag) at the time.

Here are a couple of pictures from when I bought it - with the Cokes on it.
02-1.JPG
03-1.JPG
I just bought a set of Siles walnut target stocks for it at the gun show - since I sold the Cokes to a collector in Seattle.
Last edited by BC38 on Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by Call Turner » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:35 pm

Nice!!! ;)
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by ron » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:21 pm

That gun is an absolute gem and is worth some bucks. That being the case I think you should have hung on to the original grips (if those WERE the original grips)unless you never plan on selling it because the siles, as nice as they are, would reduce the value by several hundred compared to the originals. But are the Siles the same basic type of grip? And how does it shoot?
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by BC38 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:44 pm

ron wrote:That gun is an absolute gem and is worth some bucks. That being the case I think you should have hung on to the original grips (if those WERE the original grips)unless you never plan on selling it because the siles, as nice as they are, would reduce the value by several hundred compared to the originals. But are the Siles the same basic type of grip? And how does it shoot?
Well, that's the thing. They weren't original. Like I said, the factory ONLY offered those grips as an optional accessory for the 41 and 44 magnums. NOT for the 44 special.

I paid $675 for the gun with the Cokes, and sold the Cokes for $500. So I'm into this classic shooter for a whopping $175.

The Siles are the same general "style" of grips. They basically have the same profile. They fill in the area behind the trigger guard, they have the open backstrap, and they cover the butt of the grip frame - all similar features of the Cokes. The differences are that they have no medallions, they have a slight thumb-rest flair, and the checkering area is smaller - and I only paid $20 (about 4% of what I got for the Cokes) to buy the Siles.

BTW, this one really is just shooter-grade. It has some muzzle wear and high-spot wear in the finish - especially on the cylinder flutes. The barrel has been cut down a couple of inches, recrowned and had an aftermarket sight added. It has a wide trigger shoe installed on it. So it's definitely not collector grade. Probably an 80%-85% gun.

BUT it is definitely an EXCELLENT shooter. And the real beauty of it - other than my having so little money in it - is that I can shoot it all I want and not be the least bit concerned about detracting from it's value. That is the kind of S&W that I really go for.

I've already sold the only two collector grade "safe queens" that I've ever bought. After holding them a couple of years and selling them for 60%-90% more than I paid for them I've turned right around and put the money from each of those sales into 3 or 4 replacement shooter-grade guns apiece.

I've got so little invested in this one I can't possibly get hurt on it even if I were ever to sell it, I'm sure to make money on it. Besides, I'm not much of a seller - I'm a lot more of a buyer. I don't have a collection - I have an accumulation. :D
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by ron » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:57 pm

BC38 wrote:
ron wrote:That gun is an absolute gem and is worth some bucks. That being the case I think you should have hung on to the original grips (if those WERE the original grips)unless you never plan on selling it because the siles, as nice as they are, would reduce the value by several hundred compared to the originals. But are the Siles the same basic type of grip? And how does it shoot?
Well, that's the thing. They weren't original. Like I said, the factory ONLY offered those grips as an optional accessory for the 41 and 44 magnums. NOT for the 44 special.

I paid $675 for the gun with the Cokes, and sold the Cokes for $500. So I'm into this classic shooter for a whopping $175.

The Siles are the same general "style" of grips. They basically have the same profile. They fill in the area behind the trigger guard, they have the open backstrap, and they cover the butt of the grip frame - all similar features of the Cokes. The differences are that they have no medallions, they have a slight thumb-rest flair, and the checkering area is smaller - and I only paid $20 (about 4% of what I got for the Cokes) to buy the Siles.

BTW, this one really is just shooter-grade. It has some muzzle wear and high-spot wear in the finish - especially on the cylinder flutes. The barrel has been cut down a couple of inches, recrowned and had an aftermarket sight added. It has a wide trigger shoe installed on it. So it's definitely not collector grade. Probably an 80%-85% gun.

BUT it is definitely an EXCELLENT shooter. And the real beauty of it - other than my having so little money in it - is that I can shoot it all I want and not be the least bit concerned about detracting from it's value. That is the kind of S&W that I really go for.

I've already sold the only two collector grade "safe queens" that I've ever bought. After holding them a couple of years and selling them for 60%-90% more than I paid for them I've turned right around and put the money from each of those sales into 3 or 4 replacement shooter-grade guns apiece.

I've got so little invested in this one I can't possibly get hurt on it even if I were ever to sell it, I'm sure to make money on it. Besides, I'm not much of a seller - I'm a lot more of a buyer. I don't have a collection - I have an accumulation. :D
Yes, if the barrel has been cut back I can see how you were able to get a 1950 Target for so cheap. The target grips are nice and I have a pair on my model 28 Highway patrolman that I got at Army Surplus on division for $35 dollars but the two halves don't match up very well as far as color and grain but I like the feel of those grips and the gun came with Hogues which are great for heavy recoil but not necessary on an N-frame 357 with a long barrel and I like the looks of the target grips even though they were not original on the Highway Patrolman back in 1970 when my gun was made.

I don't believe in owning any gun that can't be shot. Better to buy a rare coin instead of a gun if it's only going to sit in a safe. The most valuable gun I own is a Luger that my grandfather captured in battle in the trenches of France in WWI. I've shot it, My grandfather used to like to shoot it, my Dad has shot it, and both my brothers and my nephew have shot it, with and without the shoulder stock, and none of that reduced it's value one cent. It also has the holster, spare mag, and magazine reloading tool. Inside the barrel is pristine because it's always been cleaned after being shot and the gun has always been handled with great care.

It was almost new when he captured it but had been carried in the trenches by a German officer and had some external wear even back then, but it's been very well cared for ever since. I probably won't shoot it again only out of fear of breaking a serial numbered part. which is very unlikely but I've fired it enough to know what it's like as a firearm and not as a financial investment. It's also a reminder of my grandfather who I was very close to and who died when I was fifteen. My Grandfather was a Captain and was leading a group of men when they over-ran the German position and that's when he captured the gun.
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by hatchdog » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:27 am

This isn't really an "old" Smith as BC38 suggests but it is the oldest Smith I own. It's an 80's era M/19 that was originally owned by my dad and passed on to me via my brother. Below is a link to the history of this revolver which is a short read if you are interested. Top pic is with the grips that were on it when I got it and the bottom pic is with the replacement factory grips I got from sharpinvestments, SGT member and gun show vendor.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=87678&p=384860&hili ... 19#p384860

Image

Image

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Re: Old Smiths

Post by ron » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:48 am

What a beautiful gun. I read up on the "History" and I remember when you first posted that. You were very fortunate to get those target grips for it because the original grips are becoming more and more scarce and BC38 just sold a pair of earlier (with the double triangular uncheckered shape around the screw holes) target (aka Coke bottle) grips to a S&W collector for $400 dollars! (Correction, $500 dollars!) I was lucky to have found a pair for my N-frame model 28 Highway Patrolman at Army Surplus on division for only $35 dollars a few years ago. The only thing wrong with them was that the color and grain on both sides was different, one side light, one side dark which happens sometimes with factory grips and I have a Ruger Blackhawk with the same problem, one side light the other side dark.

While collectors place greater value on the pinned and recessed guns and scorn the Bangor Punta era guns, (1965-84) with the exception of a small number of guns, there was nothing wrong with them. I have one made in 1983 the year that they stopped recessing the cylinders for the cartridge rims and began crush-fitting the barrels and I had to take it to a gunsmith because the crush fit (tapered thread like a plumbing pipe) barrel started coming unscrewed after firing a couple of hundred rounds.

But that only happened with a small handful of guns the first year of manufacture and any gun that had the problem got fixed, and having owned both early guns with the recessed cylinders and later guns without, I can see no advantage to the recessed cylinders.

The thing I like best about any gun made before they started putting safeties on them is that Smith and Wesson produced these earlier guns in a much wider variety of configurations and different models and you also had a choice between deep bluing, nickel, and stainless, But about the time that th3ey started putting safeties on them, they had started reducing the number of different models they mad and stopped producing the nickeled and blued guns. Later they re-introduced blued and I think even nickeled guns in their "Classic" limited production guns but no way were those guns classics because they had different grip frames, hammers without the firing pins, and the idiot safeties.

This gun you have is much more of a classic than any of those stupit overpriced guns and guns like these are the ones to get for anyone who want's a good Smith and Wesson revolver without having to pay collectors prices. Just find one in the best overall condition you can find and you'll have something that is BETTER than a new "Smith and Wesson" or whatever name the company decides to call their guns.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=108730

I will post pictures of a couple of my classic S&W's later today including a pinned and recessed model 58 .41 magnum, a commercial model, not police issue. And speaking of Police Issue guns, a friend of mine has a 4 inch model 66, the stainless version of the model 19, and it's marked "SPD" and when I first saw it, I thought, WOW! --a Spokane PD gun! but then I remembered that my friend got it in Georgia somewhere near Savanna GA so it was SPD meaning Savanna Police Department and not Spokane Police Department. That gun is in very nice condition for a police turn-in gun.
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by BC38 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:07 pm

That's one beautiful M-19 Hatchdog. What dash-number is it? I'm guessing its about a 19-6 or so? IIRC the revison where they discontinued the P&R was about the 19-5 or so, around 1982. I've got a 15-5 that is from about that same period.

I have a model 19 that is a bit older than yours.
Its a late 50's/early 60's M-19 no-dash with a set of mid-80's target grips on it - just like the ones you picked up for yours.

Mine's not a pristine example like yours though. It has holster wear on the muzzle and cylinder too. Like almost all of my guns, it's a mechanically-excellent shooter-grade in the 80%-85% range condition wise.

It's a nice companion to my 13-1. They're in such comparable condition they almost look like a matched pair. ;)

Both of them are sweet shooters too. Just about all the old Smiths are. That's why I love them so....
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by hatchdog » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:19 am

^^^

It's a -5 and as you said is not pinned and recessed. But, no Hillary hole either!!! It's been to the range a few more times since my original post and it sure is a sweet shooter.

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Re: Old Smiths

Post by BC38 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:39 pm

I just got home from a play day at my buddy's house (76 acres with a private range).

I took along the 19, the 1950 target, my 29-3 Classic Hunter, an M60 J-frame, a couple of 22s, and a little TP25 I picked up recently. He was shooting his Gluck 26, and Ruger MkIII. We had a lot of fun and went through a few boxes of my reloads and few boxes of 22lr. Good day today :D
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by hkcavalier » Sun May 14, 2017 6:33 pm

Well, how old is old?

1931 K-22 Outdoorsman

Image

1952 K-38 Masterpiece

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Last edited by hkcavalier on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Old Smiths

Post by hatchdog » Mon May 15, 2017 6:29 am

Nice lineup! :D

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Re: Old Smiths

Post by Tier 1 » Mon May 15, 2017 11:56 am

Picked up the nearly perfect Model 10-5. Too nice for me to shoot.
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by hkcavalier » Fri May 26, 2017 8:55 pm

Collection got a little older today. First purchase since moving out this way.

M&P Model of 1905 4th Change .38 Special 5" barrel, left the factory in 1917. Pretty darn good shape for 100 years! Will be shooting it this weekend.

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Re: Old Smiths

Post by hkcavalier » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:12 pm

This was purchased earlier this year from a forum member. An oldie from before S&W used model numbers, most people just call them pre-39s. Shipped in 1955. Shoots great too!

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Re: Old Smiths

Post by CheapJeep » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:30 pm

Very cool hkcavalier. I have an early model 59 - the doublestack version of your 39. It is about 1973 vintage and has the black plastic (delrin?) grips. It has a little finish wear, but it shoots great.
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by Blacklion66 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:24 am

Meet Great grandma 22 and her two sons 32 & 38
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by CheapJeep » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:19 pm

Blacklion66 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:24 am
Meet Great grandma 22 and her two sons 32 & 38
Cool! Two top-breaks and a tip-up! I don't have anything anywhere near that old. I was looking at an 1899 the other day though (the first of the hand ejector models).

Unfortunately it had been poorly refinished (most of the markings were so buffed out you could barely see them) and the barrel was so pitted it looked like a sewer pipe. Not to mention that it had been shortened to 4" from what was probably originally a 6" barrel (based on the location of what was left of the roll marks). And to top it off it hadn't even had a new front sight installed. It would need a replacement barrel to even qualify as a shooter. Definitely a project gun at best, maybe only a parts gun.
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Re: Old Smiths

Post by Blacklion66 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:27 am

They are out there, the blue 32 would grade XF locks up as tight as when new. I've found most of my best buys on a gun auction listed by one dealer. The auction and dealer are my little secret ☺☺☺☺☺

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Re: Old Smiths

Post by hkcavalier » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:11 pm

Ooh this thread is back...

No more really old Smiths this year. Lettered my K-22 which shipped to Los Angeles, CA in September 1931. The pre-39 9mm shipped to the military PX distribution center in NY as part of a 30 gun lot in September 1955. I plan on lettering that 1917 M&P and the 1952 K-38 pictured above.

I bought two J frames recently, but one is brand new and the other is circa 1981.

There is a gun shop out in the Valley with a 1899 .38 Special. Barrel replaced, maybe some other problems, but might make an interesting project. New barrel, send it to that company that cryo treats the steel, then have it refinished...uh oh my wallet is crying...

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